SafeAsMilk wrote:

SafeAsMilk wrote:Not sure what you mean by them competing effectively.

Very much like the global eusocial colony of the Argentine ants. Where they go, they tend to leave even other ant species that are relatively capable of acting as a unit utterly blown the fuck out. Would you look at it?

https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/08 ... the-world/

I might check it out later if I've got time, but I think I get the gist. I'm not really interested in becoming the borg to fight against.

I'd recommend starting with this part which outlines how these ants are different to regular ants:

L. humile isn't your stereotypical ant, with one queen and many workers laboring in a single nest. Argentine ants have multiple queens per colony, and there can be as many as 300 queens for every 1,000 workers. This makes them virtually impossible to kill with poison bait traps, which work on the principle that workers bring the tasty toxins back to the queen, whose death destroys the colony. When you have a lot of queens, that's not an effective strategy.

Pointing out that what makes them more adapted to those particular circumstances is their greater individualism.

Thommo wrote:I'm not sure basing your world view off of the losing faction in a sci fi TV show is a good idea.

The borg got their arses kicked so fucking hard it was silly.

I already talked about this. The Borg only lose because of artistic license. And this shows in the real world, because, in the real world, (typically military) research projects to improve human ability are already very positively Borg-like, with terms like "thought helmet" already being thrown around seriously by the US Army. You need only scroll up to see this and if you need anything else, I'm here for you!

And I will say this: hell, I didn't come up wit this image:



We should not be so eager to write off science fiction, because it's a very unique genre of fiction, in that it has a very funny way of becoming real. An example is the novel The Garin Death Ray by the Soviet author Alexei Tolstoy. It was read by a young American man named Charles Townes and that young man, explicitly admitting the influence of said novel on his work, went on to invent a device that we now call the laser.

Dynalon wrote: And what good would fighting do you anyway?

You get to go out surrounded by a mountain of spent brass, reeking of cordite, and covered in the blood of your enemies. And if you're lucky, to Valhala on the back of a Valkyrie's steed.

Thommo wrote:Pointing out that what makes them more adapted to those particular circumstances is their greater individualism.

I'm sorry but redundancy of queens says nothing about greater individuality. How does that redundancy affect the worker ants of the supercolony? Oh, that's right: it doesn't.

laklak wrote:

Dynalon wrote: And what good would fighting do you anyway?

You get to go out surrounded by a mountain of spent brass, reeking of cordite, and covered in the blood of your enemies. And if you're lucky, to Valhala on the back of a Valkyrie's steed.

So the advantage depends on our adherence to Ásatrú. Not very convincing thus far.

Valhalla has mead, all you can drink. And roast boar, and sex, and fighting. It's worth a try, it's got to beat being a worker bee.

ETA even if you're the best Asatruar ever you're not guaranteed Valhalla, you could get sent to Fólkvangr.

I really hope you aren't serious.

Dynalon wrote:

Thommo wrote:I'm not sure basing your world view off of the losing faction in a sci fi TV show is a good idea.

The borg got their arses kicked so fucking hard it was silly.

I already talked about this. The Borg only lose because of artistic license. And this shows in the real world, because, in the real world, (typically military) research projects to improve human ability are already very positively Borg-like, with terms like "thought helmet" already being thrown around seriously by the US Army. You need only scroll up to see this and if you need anything else, I'm here for you!

Yes, you already expressed that delusion. You don't need to repeat it.

The borg don't exist. Everything about them is artistic license. And "in the real world" there is no military project that converts humans into a hive mind or anything of the sort, despite a history of hundreds of trillions (by current value) of investment into militaries.

If you want to base your life around a TV show, I suggest my little pony. I watched some with my niece and it's surprisingly good. Friendship is magic!

Only a little. Asatru has certain...conflicts....with my chosen faith, Dudism.

Dynalon wrote:

Thommo wrote:Pointing out that what makes them more adapted to those particular circumstances is their greater individualism.

I'm sorry but redundancy of queens says nothing about greater individuality. How does that redundancy affect the worker ants of the supercolony? Oh, that's right: it doesn't.

Well, I think you're wrong. But let's concede the point for the sake of argument.

How does the success of this type of ant colony over other types of ant colony (noting it's other ants they supplant, not humans, who are also doing just fine at inhabiting every corner of the globe) show that greater collectivism works better.

Oh, that's right: it doesn't.

I have a sneaking suspicion you might have heard this one before Dynalon...

Thommo wrote:

Dynalon wrote:

Thommo wrote:I'm not sure basing your world view off of the losing faction in a sci fi TV show is a good idea.

The borg got their arses kicked so fucking hard it was silly.

I already talked about this. The Borg only lose because of artistic license. And this shows in the real world, because, in the real world, (typically military) research projects to improve human ability are already very positively Borg-like, with terms like "thought helmet" already being thrown around seriously by the US Army. You need only scroll up to see this and if you need anything else, I'm here for you!

Yes, you already expressed that delusion. You don't need to repeat it.

The borg don't exist. Everything about them is artistic license. And "in the real world" there is no military project that converts humans into a hive mind or anything of the sort, despite a history of hundreds of trillions (by current value) of investment into militaries.

So I assume you're 100% A-OK with the idea of "thought helmets" and the like and you have no ethical qualms around devoting funds and research talent to the same? After all, they're only committing themselves to a delusion. On that note, the following is a passage from an entirely non-fiction book, namely The Pentagon's Brain: An Uncensored History of DARPA, America's Top-Secret Military Research Agency, by journalist Annie Jacobsen:

"As we walk the corridors looking at artwork and photographs of weapons systems adorning the Pentagon’s walls, our group expands, as does the conversation about science fact and science fiction. One officer says he has a poster of the Cigarette Smoking Man hanging on his office wall. Another says that for an office social event, his defense group made baseball caps with Skynet written across the front. Science fiction is a powerful force. Because of the fictional work of Carter and Hurd, many sound-minded people take seriously at least two significant science-fiction concepts: that (as in The Terminator) artificially intelligent machines could potentially outsmart their human creators and start a nuclear war, and that (as in The X-Files) there are forces inside the government that keep certain truths secret. As a reporter, I have learned that these concepts also exist in the real world. Artificially intelligent hunter-killer robots present unparalleled potential dangers, and the U.S. government keeps dark secrets in the name of national security. I’ve also found that some of the most powerful Pentagon secrets and strategies are hidden in plain sight."

Nothing about defense researchers wearing baseball caps dedicated to Skynet is an issue for you?

Keep It Real wrote:I have a sneaking suspicion you might have heard this one before Dynalon...

Keine Ahnung. But I have been exposed to this:



Computer! Machine! Armored Man!
Go straight forward!
Let it loose!

Dynalon wrote:

Thommo wrote:

Dynalon wrote:

Thommo wrote:I'm not sure basing your world view off of the losing faction in a sci fi TV show is a good idea.

The borg got their arses kicked so fucking hard it was silly.

I already talked about this. The Borg only lose because of artistic license. And this shows in the real world, because, in the real world, (typically military) research projects to improve human ability are already very positively Borg-like, with terms like "thought helmet" already being thrown around seriously by the US Army. You need only scroll up to see this and if you need anything else, I'm here for you!

Yes, you already expressed that delusion. You don't need to repeat it.

The borg don't exist. Everything about them is artistic license. And "in the real world" there is no military project that converts humans into a hive mind or anything of the sort, despite a history of hundreds of trillions (by current value) of investment into militaries.

So I assume you're 100% A-OK with the idea of "thought helmets" and the like and you have no ethical qualms around devoting funds and research talent to the same? After all, they're only committing themselves to a delusion.

Are we at this again?

No, the delusion is the part where you think a TV show is a model for reality. Not the part where you quote a 10 year old article about a speculative technology for rudimentary silent communication which has bugger all in common with commanders mind controlling their subordinates, turning them into a hive mind and probably (based on most technological speculations) won't ever come to pass anyway.

I suppose it could also be a delusion to think that if a technology is talked about, it will necessarily come to be, that it will be beneficial and that entirely separate technologies will be an inevitable, also beneficial, consequence.

Anyway, it'll all be fine. Twilight Sparkle can defeat the borg for us. She's not just a princess, she can also fly and she has magic. Most importantly of all she has friends she can count on, and that is enough for her to overcome any challenge. Ponies 1, Borg 0.

Thommo wrote:

Dynalon wrote:

Thommo wrote:Pointing out that what makes them more adapted to those particular circumstances is their greater individualism.

I'm sorry but redundancy of queens says nothing about greater individuality. How does that redundancy affect the worker ants of the supercolony? Oh, that's right: it doesn't.

Well, I think you're wrong. But let's concede the point for the sake of argument.

How does the success of this type of ant colony over other types of ant colony (noting it's other ants they supplant, not humans, who are also doing just fine at inhabiting every corner of the globe) show that greater collectivism works better.

Oh, that's right: it doesn't.

Humans are pretty good at inhabiting our planet but one thing that humanist narratives will not tell you is that the human body is altogether ill-suited for outer space: atrophying terribly even when subject to regular exercise and subject to all sorts of horrible carcinogenic cosmic rays. I'll leave it to you to decide whether transcending these weaknesses will be a purely democratic process.

Thommo wrote:No, the delusion is the part where you think a TV show is a model for reality. Not the part where you quote a 10 year old article about a speculative technology for rudimentary silent communication which has bugger all in common with commanders mind controlling their subordinates, turning them into a hive mind and probably (based on most technological speculations) won't ever come to pass anyway.

By what "technological speculations" will such neurotechnology as I have spoken of never come to fruition and why do you believe that any great military would not desire a hive mind, which would give them such unity as has never been given before to any past military "units"?

Why do you appear to believe that the economic and military advantages of a hive mind will remain forever untapped?

Dynalon wrote:Humans are pretty good at inhabiting our planet but one thing that humanist narratives will not tell you is that the human body is altogether ill-suited for outer space: atrophying terribly even when subject to regular exercise and subject to all sorts of horrible carcinogenic cosmic rays. I'll leave it to you to decide whether transcending these weaknesses will be a purely democratic process.

I'm guessing democracy will do better than Argentinian ants and characters from science fiction at exploring space.

It certainly has so far.

On the plus side, this conversation has started to shed some light on whether you really were quite as rational in the face of irrationality as you described at the head of this conversation in #117.

Dynalon wrote:

Thommo wrote:No, the delusion is the part where you think a TV show is a model for reality. Not the part where you quote a 10 year old article about a speculative technology for rudimentary silent communication which has bugger all in common with commanders mind controlling their subordinates, turning them into a hive mind and probably (based on most technological speculations) won't ever come to pass anyway.

By what "technological speculations" will such neurotechnology as I have spoken of never come to fruition and why do you believe that any great military would not desire a hive mind, which would give them such unity as has never been given before to any past military "units"?

You're misreading the first part and the second part is your burden of proof, not mine.

I suggest you go back and read it again more carefully.

Dynalon wrote:Humans are pretty good at inhabiting our planet but one thing that humanist narratives will not tell you is that the human body is altogether ill-suited for outer space: atrophying terribly even when subject to regular exercise and subject to all sorts of horrible carcinogenic cosmic rays. I'll leave it to you to decide whether transcending these weaknesses will be a purely democratic process.

Seems a little, erm, narcissistic (sounds cheesy coming from me now that word...), no: anthropocentric, to think humans and machines need be combined physically in this way. The machines do the physical space exploration (for now) and could carry the genetic code(s) for humans and the technology to gestate and raise said colonising humans if/when fertile ground is located. That approach also ameliorates the spectre of homogeneity inherent to the "Borg Mind" level of interconnectivity/cybernetics.

Dynalon wrote:By what "technological speculations" will such neurotechnology as I have spoken of never come to fruition and why do you believe that any great big military would not desire a hive mind, which would give them such unity as has never been given before to any past military "units"?

There's more than enough military around for now, wouldn't you agree? And all of it sucks donkey cock from a philosophical level.