psychopathy/sociopathy/antisocial personality

dt_busse · #1 by **dt_busse** » Dec 22, 2010 5:30 am

Are there among us psychopaths or sociopaths? People whose behaviors in the past would have been characterized as sociopathic or psychopathic but currently are more generally referred to as having one sort or another of antisocial personality. Regardless of the terminology, many professionals and laypersons hold the belief that one of us in a hundred "lacks conscience" and feels no remorse for harm done to others, has no particular regard for the concept of truth, is little aware of the feelings of others except as those feelings have negative consequences for himself/herself, and devotes the major part of waking life to self satisfaction. That would be three million of them in the U.S. Lots of them quite intelligent.

Is this believable? Could it be that a substantial portion of our difficulties as a society results from the actions of such people?

There is debate over whether people who appear to be sociopathic or psychopathic may belong to a discreet class or to discrete classes of individuals having neurological disorders; or whether on the other hand there is gradation so that some individuals think and behave in ways that are extremely out of the ordinary and are clearly different from the rest of us, and others less so. There seems to be consensus that at most such individuals are not curable and that few are even treatable. There seems to be consensus that many such individuals learn to be charming and become great storytellers. (I think Walt Disney is said to have felt that one should never let truth get in the way of a good story.) Also that many are easily bored and need to keep moving to find things that stimulate them - including immoderate drug and alcohol use.

If 1% of the people in a nation can behave without conscience while all the rest are restrained by conscience, it is easy to see the the 1% having influence out of proportion to their numbers. Are there really such people? And so many? If so, why is there so little discussion; why does there seem to be so little awareness of the circumstance?

It doesn't seem unreasonable to presume that most of us have contact with more than 1000 people in our lifetimes - relatives, classmates, neighbors, co-workers, lodge brothers and sisters, church members (he, he) - so most sohuld come across 10 or so in those lifetimes, probably more. Who has recognized them?

CdesignProponentsist · #2 by **CdesignProponentsist** » Dec 22, 2010 5:42 am

dt_busse wrote:Is this believable? Could it be that a substantial portion of our difficulties as a society results from the actions of such people?

If the studies are to be believed. I find it believable.

These conditions are not necessarily malignant. I believe having a healthy impulse control can result in upstanding citizens. They may be self serving, but recognize that law breaking or even socially immoral or unethical acts can act counter to their interests. This may also be part of normal human variation important for a diverse society. But when you mix in developmental issues and poor impulse control or even worse, cult of personality they can become very dangerous to pocket book or life

Gallstones · #3 by **Gallstones** » Dec 22, 2010 5:50 am

I thought this was going to be a critical thread about me.

CdesignProponentsist · #4 by **CdesignProponentsist** » Dec 22, 2010 6:00 am

Gallstones wrote:I thought this was going to be a critical thread about me.

It is now

chairman bill · #5 by **chairman bill** » Dec 22, 2010 9:52 am

You'll find a good proportion of them in business management & (especially, but not exclusively right-wing) politics.

dt_busse · #6 by **dt_busse** » Dec 22, 2010 8:44 pm

What I'm hoping to learn is what people who have actually had contact with a psychopath observed. I knew one person when I was younger who was a great storyteller and a great risk taker and who wound up in jail, but never seemed to display the mean indifference that the descriptions suggest. Anybody here have experience with the genuine item? Since I wrote the OP I came across the idea that they tend to be pretty good at hiding their feelings/lack of feelings about others, but still, if there are so many of them we all could be expected to have met at least one. Another estimate of their frequency has 1 in 25 males in the category. (The book "The Sociopath Next Door" cites sources. The author seems legitimate - taught Harvard Med School - if a little sloppy in research and analysis.)

Gallstones · #7 by **Gallstones** » Dec 22, 2010 8:55 pm

dt_busse wrote:What I'm hoping to learn is what people who have actually had contact with a psychopath observed. I knew one person when I was younger who was a great storyteller and a great risk taker and who wound up in jail, but never seemed to display the mean indifference that the descriptions suggest. Anybody here have experience with the genuine item? Since I wrote the OP I came across the idea that they tend to be pretty good at hiding their feelings/lack of feelings about others, but still, if there are so many of them we all could be expected to have met at least one. Another estimate of their frequency has 1 in 25 males in the category. (The book "The Sociopath Next Door" cites sources. The author seems legitimate - taught Harvard Med School - if a little sloppy in research and analysis.)

Your example might have more likely been bipolar than psychopath/sociopath/personality disorder.
There are lots of us (bipolar) around, it seems, or else we are magnets for each other.

I am not sure if I have experience with the genuine item, but my father is a narcissist with a very narrow emotional repertoire (excludes love, affection) and a seeming lack of ability to feel empathy. My mother's mother seemed to be off as well, cruel, abusive and lacking in empathy.

dt_busse · #8 by **dt_busse** » Dec 22, 2010 11:13 pm

Gallstones wrote: magnets for each other.

That could be. Most of my friends are at least a little skitzy like me. We used to refer to each other as the local corps of space cadets. But I still wonder about the sort of people who, if they have even reasonable intelligence should be able to wade right past us sentimentalists, facing as they do (don't?) no internal prohibitions against anything. In most situations I've experienced it doesn't seem to take much in the way of intelligence to get to be the boss. Just plenty of personality, invented or real, and self confidence. But as far as I can tell most of my bosses have just been blowhards, not sociopaths.

dt_busse · #9 by **dt_busse** » Dec 22, 2010 11:21 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote: a healthy impulse control can result in upstanding citizens.

I don't disagree, but. There's impulse control and there's impulse control. Being able to stop yourself from doing something to avoid being jailed or otherwise harmed is one thing, and being able to control yourself just because submission to a temptation would be "wrong" is another. If you once get into a position with enough power, the first is unnecessary. And the second, for a sociopath, isn't there in the first place.

Father O Rielly · **#10** by **Father O Rielly** » Dec 23, 2010 5:31 am

As with any sort of condition, there is always going to be a spectrum of behaviors. We are all individuals, and that individuality will color any sort of condition, including serious psychological disorders.

The one percent figure contains a wider variety of behavior. There are some people at the very extreme of ASPD, such as Clifford Olsen for example, who tortured, raped, and murdered about a dozen children twenty years ago in Canada. Today he still seems to have no remorse, and has sent out hurtful letters to relatives of the murdered from his prison cell, etc.

But the majority rate on various scales of assessment, and certainly all are not crazed killers. Why a certain number seem to display this collection of behaviors is not known, but it is fairly well established that a small number do, and probably do from birth, or an early age.

Not surprisingly, a great many with this diagnosis end up in the prison system. In Canada, probably about a third of the prison population show clinical signs of ASPD. My sense is that those with a little higher IQ tend to end up in the business world, and those with a little lower are the ones more prone to blunt violence, and then often imprisonment. That’s just a guess though.

Gallstones · **#11** by **Gallstones** » Dec 23, 2010 5:33 am

So Father, are you really a Father?

I was Catholic.

dt_busse · **#12** by **dt_busse** » Dec 23, 2010 5:45 am

And Father, do you KNOW any ASPD psychopaths or sociopaths. There are academics and therapists who think in some cases the people are not to be ranked "on various scales of assessment" but are over the line on some kind of genetic or developmental or environmental switching mechanism. Full blown - no going back. And I have to assume that they aren't all mass murderers, or we would probably know whether we had ever met one.
By the way, do you know any?

Father O Rielly · **#13** by **Father O Rielly** » Dec 23, 2010 7:54 am

dt_busse wrote:And Father, do you KNOW any ASPD psychopaths or sociopaths. There are academics and therapists who think in some cases the people are not to be ranked "on various scales of assessment" but are over the line on some kind of genetic or developmental or environmental switching mechanism. Full blown - no going back. And I have to assume that they aren't all mass murderers, or we would probably know whether we had ever met one.
By the way, do you know any?

If by saying some are “not to be ranked” by assessments, you mean that the relevant psychological testing has little value, then I disagree. Nothing is perfect, but this is a condition that has been studied, and there are valid methods of looking at it.

Certainly, some of the psychological phenomena we see are more resistant to change than others. In some cases, either effective medication, or counseling interventions, or both can be very useful in treating illness. In other cases, such as ASPD, not much seems to work. So in this sense, “no going back” is a reasonable enough description.

As for meeting them, again all are individuals, and the degree to which they adhere to this syndrome will vary, and also be influenced by their own personalities and environment. But yes, they are there. I have met a few from the prison system.

Father O Rielly · **#14** by **Father O Rielly** » Dec 23, 2010 7:57 am

Gallstones wrote:So Father, are you really a Father?

I was Catholic.

I am a virtual Father, in the same sense I suppose, that you are a virtual Gallstone.

Ironclad · **#15** by **Ironclad** » Dec 23, 2010 8:30 am

Who has recognized them?

I have, yet far far too late.
My circle of friends was slowly ruined by a conniving sociopath who found chinks to burrow into, here and there, over several years. My groups issue was that we were (we liked to think, at least) open, casual, happy-go-lucky and mostly overlooked foibles, oh.. and generally stoned. Sitting ducks.
This lad entered our circle as most of us were in our early 20s, seems his mother had palmed him off to the estranged father (debatable as to why, she was several counties away). Almost immediately he upset one person with a burst of aggression and he was nearly shown the red card from the off, alas he pulled his neck in and survived.
Some years later one dear friend told me that he'd been gunning for him behind everyone's back, I found it hard to believe at the time. Though as time rolled on I saw what he was doing; he found it difficult to contain his behaviour and needed to attach himself to a small group where he would be funny and charming yet attack one other at a time from a secure postion. Any complaints would be met (by us, or whomever he'd latched onto) with disbelief, and at worst derision for 'not being cool maaan'. He was good, but he did have to keep moving between us as an aid to hiding his true nature.
I noticed that the problems he'd cause for individuals would not keep him away either, more, in fact, the closer he got. I presume to hear the gossip and look clean, if you will.
He split our group up, stole 100s of pounds from me, put friend against friend - yet still maintained this innocent aura.
He is now a loner, I hear. Yet so much damage was caused barely anyone talks now, not enough even to discuss matters. His influence was to cause undermining and terrible embarrassment. Funny, the closer we got to the truth the more nasty his campaign.
Unfortunately for me towards the end I met a nice girl, I thought.. she turned out to be afflicted with the bug too. My friends would not listen as she ostracised me from the group with her tales and lies. I just could not win, the girl was a breath of fresh air, sassy, yet I was "treating her bad bla bla". How much glee did I see in (lets call him Vince) Vince's eyes as the hurt rolled on, without him having to lift a finger!

Sociopaths should be found and made to wear a forehead tattoo; "I am a cnut, avoid me".

*phew* (it still hurts)

Gallstones · **#16** by **Gallstones** » Dec 25, 2010 10:08 pm

Gallstones · **#17** by **Gallstones** » Dec 25, 2010 10:09 pm

Site has been fucking up the past few days. Pages won't load and posts get duplicated because it seems as if they never posted. This was one of those. Dup removed.

Peter Brown · **#18** by **Peter Brown** » Dec 25, 2010 11:23 pm

chairman bill wrote:You'll find a good proportion of them in business management & (especially, but not exclusively right-wing) politics.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_a ... 826475.ece

I have this psychiatric nurse friend who said it was nice for them to have work that suited the condition, and kept them out of prison.

Sityl · **#19** by **Sityl** » Dec 25, 2010 11:57 pm

Peter Brown wrote:
chairman bill wrote:You'll find a good proportion of them in business management & (especially, but not exclusively right-wing) politics.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_a ... 826475.ece

I have this psychiatric nurse friend who said it was nice for them to have work that suited the condition, and kept them out of prison.

One could argue that sociopaths being in those professions could do more damage to the economy and the country than they would if they committed crimes and ended in jail. :think:

(I'm thinking of credit default swaps, fox news, mortgage meltdown, etc.)

irreligionist · **#20** by **irreligionist** » Dec 26, 2010 2:06 am

I have known one, for certain, and I suspect my aunt is another one.

They most certainly exist. They have no conscience, which is unimaginable for us who have one. There is nothing that they would not do. If you think about it, it is scary. What I saw and experienced was scary. Ugly, frightening, upsetting, confusing.

The book, Sociopath Next Door, was fascinating, because it outlined how brain imaging studies showed that sociopaths process 'emotional' stimuli as normal people would process math problems. The book's advice to people who have a sociopath in their life is simple: get the hell out of their life as quickly as you can. Easier said than done if the sociopath is related to you.

The other thing that has been a revelation is, I can now understand how there are people out there who do monstrous things (yes people with consciences can and do monstrous things, but they have a conscience weighing them down inwardly, if not outwardly) ... they do them because they have no conscience and they can and will do anything that it is in their interest to do.