Religiosity and intelligence

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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#141  Postby Fallible » Mar 11, 2017 9:47 am

And I use 'whom'!
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Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#142  Postby Agrippina » Mar 11, 2017 10:00 am

Scot Dutchy wrote:
crank wrote:On the Dunning Kruger front, came across this quote, and damn, did Darwin perceive or at least get a glimpse of everyfuckingthing?

“Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science.”
― Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man


The lack of comprehension also plays a role. I believe religious people have little comprehension of the society they live in and just survive in their little world and refuse to look beyond their boundaries.


Of course, you can see that with fundamentalists who put visitors in prison because one of them happens to be pregnant, while the pair are not married, or the fear that people have of refugees coming to kill them in their beds. If they understood that marriage isn't a prerequisite for pregnancy, and that people who are fleeing horrendous conditions only want to be allowed to live without fear, they probably would be a lot happier and less fearful themselves.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#143  Postby crank » Mar 11, 2017 10:01 am

Fallible wrote:
zulumoose wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Highly intelligent people can be religious because they're semantically/linguistically flexible enough to take a non-literal view of scripture. I got a 1st at university and have just found my feet in Christianity. I plan to attend church regularly and draw great strength, optimism and comfort from my faith. All you inflexible, religion denying atheists are missing out on the beneficial aspects of participating in a faith imo.


We may be missing out on "the beneficial aspects of participating in a faith" , but you see, we have a problem. We care about whether something is true.

You can have all "the beneficial aspects of participating in a faith" in almost ANY faith active in your community, at any point in history, regardless of truth, unless you are someone who cares about whether all the claims people are making around you are false, baseless, unjustified, delusional. Once you start caring, and think rationally, faith is exposed for the empty shell it always was.


Yes, and then that in turn completely takes the shine off anything enjoyable, or it did for me. Being in a community setting with people who I knew would think there was something wrong with me or that I needed help, while simultaneously I was incredulously trying to work out what kind of life long suspension of disbelief allowed them to live in that world would just make me feel like a hypocrite and an outsider even if only I knew it, and distance me from them.

Damn, archibald beat me to it. :grin:

Actually, I had very similar feelings growing up. Being a gay atheist from about 7th grade in a catholic school in a small farming community in Texas, 'outsider' is rather mild. I didn't feel like a hypocrite, though, largely I never 'acted', or tried to 'pass', I just avoided needing to, or tried. There were occasions that required me to lie/act, which usually made me nervous and/or pissed off because I don't do it very well. It really never occurred to me that there was something wrong with me, that I was wrong, or not thinking correctly. And that isn't normal for me, I often, almost usually, doubt if I'm correct about things, having such a crappy memory makes sure of that, but isn't the only source of the doubt. I don't know what gave me the certainty in these things, especially the gay part, that came about a year before realizing how stupid religion was. Probably, the gay part was a factor in the religion thing.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#144  Postby crank » Mar 11, 2017 10:03 am

Fallible wrote:And I use 'whom'!

Still the outsider I see. :lol:
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#145  Postby Agrippina » Mar 11, 2017 10:09 am

Calilasseia wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
monkeyboy wrote:
Agrippina wrote: I think people who call eggplants "aubergines" sound pretentious. But that's because I've always known them to be brinjals, or eggplants, and I'm just a South African with no class. :grin:


Ha, ha. I never heard any alternative to aubergine until I saw the film "True Romance" and had to look up what an eggplant is to complete the Dennis Hopper/Christopher Walken scene satisfactorily. And now I've just learned 20yrs later that there is another word for them. Every single day a school day......


I don't have a problem with aubergine. I just can't figure out how people who will use an exotic name for something, and even spell it correctly, cannot figure out the difference between "their" and "there". I would imagine people who can't do that, would call an egg-shaped purple vegetable, a "purple thing that looks like an egg". Just the way my mind works. What is really getting me at the moment is that people understand "arcane" but can't figure out when to use "whom" and "who".


You would probably enjoy Pidgin English. :D


Actually, living where I do where English is used as the medium of general understanding across the speakers of the other 10 official languages, I come across some very weird English in my daily life. I accept that I cannot complain about it because I can barely make myself understood in Afrikaans, and have a basic knowledge of greetings and simple instructions in Zulu, so when I come across someone who can speak three or four of the other languages fairly fluently, yet can't express themselves in English, I concede that they are better linguists. It's the reason why I don't laugh at our president's inability to read figures in English, because I wouldn't know where to start to read them in any of the other languages he speaks with fluency, and certainly not in Zulu.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#146  Postby Agrippina » Mar 11, 2017 10:12 am

crank wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
monkeyboy wrote:
Agrippina wrote: I think people who call eggplants "aubergines" sound pretentious. But that's because I've always known them to be brinjals, or eggplants, and I'm just a South African with no class. :grin:


Ha, ha. I never heard any alternative to aubergine until I saw the film "True Romance" and had to look up what an eggplant is to complete the Dennis Hopper/Christopher Walken scene satisfactorily. And now I've just learned 20yrs later that there is another word for them. Every single day a school day......


I don't have a problem with aubergine. I just can't figure out how people who will use an exotic name for something, and even spell it correctly, cannot figure out the difference between "their" and "there". I would imagine people who can't do that, would call an egg-shaped purple vegetable, a "purple thing that looks like an egg". Just the way my mind works. What is really getting me at the moment is that people understand "arcane" but can't figure out when to use "whom" and "who".

Well, I thought aubergines were something farmers tended to wear.

As someone who has in the recent past said something like 'that seen in the movie', and twice 'I had scene it before', I can say I'm pretty sure I know the difference. I know we've had this discussion before, there may be people who don't know the difference, but mostly it's lack of proof reading, because if I look at what I wrote, I see the error immediately. Being on twitter or FB makes this crap happen a lot more often. I think it's a nearness in your current mental state's search space, lead astray by repetition and/or recent exposure kind of thing. But that's a guess. The 'whom' thing is long dead, its grave site too overgrown to find a headstone, if one exists, I heard they just threw it in on top of thee and thou.


The other one is "further" and "farther". It seems American TV has decided that "whom" and "farther" apply in all instances. :roll:
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#147  Postby crank » Mar 11, 2017 10:12 am

Fallible wrote:I often make these mistakes when I'm typing. Just yesterday I wrote a post which contained 'there' instead of 'their', and a grocers' apostrophe in the word 'minds'. These errors were also immediately adjacent to each other in the sentence. As we know, I'm considered to be a pain when it comes to grammar, spelling and punctuation (it caused a visceral reaction in me akin to that which one might experience having alighted upon a shocking image on google when I saw my mistakes), and yet I can still make these fundamental errors unless I check my output before submitting. I cling to the hope that much of the upsetting illiteracy I witness is actually down to carelessness...which, come to think of it, I'm not sure is much better.

You must love twitter.

Coming across shocking images in google is a common source of mental trauma these days that no one had to contend with much before, though it was somewhat common at my house if I dared to peruse some of my dad's medical books and publications, yuck, shivvers, puke. With google, I've become fairly adept at not seeing what is right in front of me, the same with all the ads, it's almost like they're not there. I think the brain is steering me away, in a way that keeps the crap from registering consciously. Whatever it's doing, it's pretty efficient, but far from 100%, there's just too many things you can't unsee that pop up on our monitors all the fucking time.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#148  Postby Alan B » Mar 11, 2017 10:13 am

I've always called them Brinjals, but then my wife was from South India...

She was a devout Christian and I wasn't. I refused to go to church so she decided to stop going to church until I went with her. In her mind a sort of blackmail. It didn't work.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#149  Postby crank » Mar 11, 2017 10:19 am

Agrippina wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
monkeyboy wrote:

Ha, ha. I never heard any alternative to aubergine until I saw the film "True Romance" and had to look up what an eggplant is to complete the Dennis Hopper/Christopher Walken scene satisfactorily. And now I've just learned 20yrs later that there is another word for them. Every single day a school day......


I don't have a problem with aubergine. I just can't figure out how people who will use an exotic name for something, and even spell it correctly, cannot figure out the difference between "their" and "there". I would imagine people who can't do that, would call an egg-shaped purple vegetable, a "purple thing that looks like an egg". Just the way my mind works. What is really getting me at the moment is that people understand "arcane" but can't figure out when to use "whom" and "who".


You would probably enjoy Pidgin English. :D


Actually, living where I do where English is used as the medium of general understanding across the speakers of the other 10 official languages, I come across some very weird English in my daily life. I accept that I cannot complain about it because I can barely make myself understood in Afrikaans, and have a basic knowledge of greetings and simple instructions in Zulu, so when I come across someone who can speak three or four of the other languages fairly fluently, yet can't express themselves in English, I concede that they are better linguists. It's the reason why I don't laugh at our president's inability to read figures in English, because I wouldn't know where to start to read them in any of the other languages he speaks with fluency, and certainly not in Zulu.

Ha! Our president has trouble reading anything in English and it's his native tongue. And, he belongs in a zoolou if you ask me.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#150  Postby Agrippina » Mar 11, 2017 10:39 am

Alan B wrote:I've always called them Brinjals, but then my wife was from South India...

She was a devout Christian and I wasn't. I refused to go to church so she decided to stop going to church until I went with her. In her mind a sort of blackmail. It didn't work.


We probably call them brinjals because of the Indians. I don't like them, no matter what fancy name they're given. We refer to them as "purple slime". :yuk:
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#151  Postby Agrippina » Mar 11, 2017 10:40 am

crank wrote:
Fallible wrote:I often make these mistakes when I'm typing. Just yesterday I wrote a post which contained 'there' instead of 'their', and a grocers' apostrophe in the word 'minds'. These errors were also immediately adjacent to each other in the sentence. As we know, I'm considered to be a pain when it comes to grammar, spelling and punctuation (it caused a visceral reaction in me akin to that which one might experience having alighted upon a shocking image on google when I saw my mistakes), and yet I can still make these fundamental errors unless I check my output before submitting. I cling to the hope that much of the upsetting illiteracy I witness is actually down to carelessness...which, come to think of it, I'm not sure is much better.

You must love twitter.

Coming across shocking images in google is a common source of mental trauma these days that no one had to contend with much before, though it was somewhat common at my house if I dared to peruse some of my dad's medical books and publications, yuck, shivvers, puke. With google, I've become fairly adept at not seeing what is right in front of me, the same with all the ads, it's almost like they're not there. I think the brain is steering me away, in a way that keeps the crap from registering consciously. Whatever it's doing, it's pretty efficient, but far from 100%, there's just too many things you can't unsee that pop up on our monitors all the fucking time.


On Facebook. This morning someone decided to show images of unshaven armpits. I have no idea why I find unshaven pits, disgusting, but I do, even on men. I'm weird! :roll:
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#152  Postby archibald » Mar 11, 2017 11:34 am

Fallible wrote:And I use 'whom'!


It could be worse. You could call people 'squire'.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#153  Postby archibald » Mar 11, 2017 11:35 am

Agrippina wrote:I have no idea why I find unshaven pits, disgusting, but I do, even on men. I'm weird! :roll:


Image
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#154  Postby Scot Dutchy » Mar 11, 2017 11:45 am

Agrippina wrote:

On Facebook. This morning someone decided to show images of unshaven armpits. I have no idea why I find unshaven pits, disgusting, but I do, even on men. I'm weird! :roll:


No but I cant stand body hair so I must be weirder. :lol:
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#155  Postby Fallible » Mar 11, 2017 1:18 pm

crank wrote:
Fallible wrote:
zulumoose wrote:
Keep It Real wrote:Highly intelligent people can be religious because they're semantically/linguistically flexible enough to take a non-literal view of scripture. I got a 1st at university and have just found my feet in Christianity. I plan to attend church regularly and draw great strength, optimism and comfort from my faith. All you inflexible, religion denying atheists are missing out on the beneficial aspects of participating in a faith imo.


We may be missing out on "the beneficial aspects of participating in a faith" , but you see, we have a problem. We care about whether something is true.

You can have all "the beneficial aspects of participating in a faith" in almost ANY faith active in your community, at any point in history, regardless of truth, unless you are someone who cares about whether all the claims people are making around you are false, baseless, unjustified, delusional. Once you start caring, and think rationally, faith is exposed for the empty shell it always was.


Yes, and then that in turn completely takes the shine off anything enjoyable, or it did for me. Being in a community setting with people who I knew would think there was something wrong with me or that I needed help, while simultaneously I was incredulously trying to work out what kind of life long suspension of disbelief allowed them to live in that world would just make me feel like a hypocrite and an outsider even if only I knew it, and distance me from them.

Damn, archibald beat me to it. :grin:

Actually, I had very similar feelings growing up. Being a gay atheist from about 7th grade in a catholic school in a small farming community in Texas, 'outsider' is rather mild. I didn't feel like a hypocrite, though, largely I never 'acted', or tried to 'pass', I just avoided needing to, or tried.


No, well in that situation you didn't have any choice other than to continue to be in there. If I started going to church now in order to experience these supposed 'benefits' without believing in a god, or with having to distort the meaning of a god in order to do so, that would be my choice, and I would feel hypocritical. I know I couldn't do it, and that would cancel out any benefits.

There were occasions that required me to lie/act, which usually made me nervous and/or pissed off because I don't do it very well.


I see this as more of a survival thing. As a schoolkid you kind of just have to get by in those circumstances until they end. It really makes me think how unfair it is to put a child in that place where they have to lie and act.

It really never occurred to me that there was something wrong with me, that I was wrong, or not thinking correctly.


Yeah, I hasten to add that in my scenario I wouldn't think that there was anything wrong with me for not believing. It would be enough of a turn-off that the people I was with would think there was something wrong with me if they knew I was an atheist, or that I needed help because I was misguided. That would cancel out the benefits for me - the idea that they're only being free and nice with me because they think I'm the same as them.

And that isn't normal for me, I often, almost usually, doubt if I'm correct about things, having such a crappy memory makes sure of that, but isn't the only source of the doubt. I don't know what gave me the certainty in these things, especially the gay part, that came about a year before realizing how stupid religion was. Probably, the gay part was a factor in the religion thing.


Mm. Well, it's great that you were certain about those things, and that indoctrination was unsuccessful. I wish there were more like you. I didn't get a lot of support at home in general, but one thing I am glad about is that this god stuff wasn't being pushed on me there. I was raised in a household in which God played no part, so I was, shall we say, inoculated against it for the most part. By the time I was in this country and going to school here, I'd already had several years of god-free life. It was much more difficult for school to override something which was already in place, than it is for them to simply continue the work already started at home. Ultimately, it was entirely unsuccessful.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#156  Postby Fallible » Mar 11, 2017 1:19 pm

crank wrote:
Fallible wrote:And I use 'whom'!

Still the outsider I see. :lol:


Yes! :whine:
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She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#157  Postby Fallible » Mar 11, 2017 1:22 pm

archibald wrote:
Fallible wrote:And I use 'whom'!


It could be worse. You could call people 'squire'.


What kind of sick-minded individual would do that??
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#158  Postby Fallible » Mar 11, 2017 1:23 pm

Agrippina wrote:
crank wrote:
Fallible wrote:I often make these mistakes when I'm typing. Just yesterday I wrote a post which contained 'there' instead of 'their', and a grocers' apostrophe in the word 'minds'. These errors were also immediately adjacent to each other in the sentence. As we know, I'm considered to be a pain when it comes to grammar, spelling and punctuation (it caused a visceral reaction in me akin to that which one might experience having alighted upon a shocking image on google when I saw my mistakes), and yet I can still make these fundamental errors unless I check my output before submitting. I cling to the hope that much of the upsetting illiteracy I witness is actually down to carelessness...which, come to think of it, I'm not sure is much better.

You must love twitter.

Coming across shocking images in google is a common source of mental trauma these days that no one had to contend with much before, though it was somewhat common at my house if I dared to peruse some of my dad's medical books and publications, yuck, shivvers, puke. With google, I've become fairly adept at not seeing what is right in front of me, the same with all the ads, it's almost like they're not there. I think the brain is steering me away, in a way that keeps the crap from registering consciously. Whatever it's doing, it's pretty efficient, but far from 100%, there's just too many things you can't unsee that pop up on our monitors all the fucking time.


On Facebook. This morning someone decided to show images of unshaven armpits. I have no idea why I find unshaven pits, disgusting, but I do, even on men. I'm weird! :roll:


Superfluous comma alert!



:teef:
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#159  Postby Agrippina » Mar 11, 2017 1:32 pm

OMG! OMG! I made a booboo. :lol:
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Re: Religiosity and intelligence

#160  Postby zulumoose » Mar 12, 2017 4:46 am

Aggie you don't honestly think Zuma can do better with numbers in Zulu do you?

Have you seen zulu numbers? There is a reason nobody uses them.

Think of any first-world language you like, it usually takes 11 syllables to count to 10 because there is always one number that has 2.
In english it is 7, german 9, french 4.

in zulu it takes 42 syllables to count to 10. Not a mathematical culture.
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