Spectator Sports

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Re: Spectator Sports

#161  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 11:47 am

trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
801

No you have it wrong. I don't ignore the benefits. This thread has helped me to figure out what it is. It's the religious tribalism.

Do you realise what you did there? You said you don't ignore the benefits and then went on to show how you've ignored the benefits, again. Let's try once more....HEALTH!


No need to shout. You get your good health your way, and I'll deal with my issues my way OK?

Sorry for shouting but at that stage I had lost count of how many times you had overlooked "health" as a benefit of sport.

When I see the general population of the western world participating in sport, and not being shown on the news as being "overweight" and "obese," compared with the communities of places that don't have television, never mind general organised sport, I'll agree with you. "Health" might be a benefit to the people who play the sport, it's not a benefit to people who sit on their couches yelling at referees. Unless you think that yelling is a form of sport.

I don't really mind my DH watching Premier League football, cricket, rugby etc., as I explained, I find other ways to block the noise. It's the way it's followed like religion. I hate what religion does to people, and I'm seeing sport do that same kind of indoctrination: you can't be healthy mentally if you don't watch sport, and you can't be healthy physically unless you play sport. It sounds like: you can't be healthy mentally unless you believe in God, and you can't be healthy physically unless you attend our meetings, and participate in our social events. This is what I hate about it.

You have invented a lot of stuff to hate. We all need hobbies, I guess. Sport is better than hate, in my opinion.

"Hate" is perhaps too harsh a term to express my feelings about anything. I don't really "hate" things, I just don't need them in my life, like sport and other religions. You have your opinions about sport, and I'll have mine. I'm old enough to decide what I want for the rest of my life and it doesn't include ball games, OK?

Oh sorry, you were talking hatefully about sport, using words like "hate", I mistakenly assumed you meant "hate".
You are welcome to hold whatever opinions you wish about sport, just as I can attempt to argue that you are terribly mistaken in your opinions. If you had written off music, I would have argued against you just as vigorously. I occasionally hear people writing off sport, this forum seems the ideal opportunity to address the misleading accusations and poor argumentation used against things like sport.
Your objections to sport seem to consist of disliking the people who share your house and a distaste for sweat. It's a nonsense.

That's right pick one of the reasons that I dislike sport, and harp on that. There are a whole lot of reasons, those are only two of them. Do you rant at people who dislike computers, or fishing, or hang gliding in the same way? Let's see these are the reasons I hear people telling me why they don't like computers: I don't see the point of them, people sit on them all day talking to strangers, when they could be socialising in the real world, I don't like staring at a screen all day, I prefer to watch television, and especially sport instead, how can you be healthy and chat online all day? Hang gliding, I don't know anyone who likes hang gliding, so I wouldn't know about it. Fishing, I don't fancy that either: smelly, boring, quiet, blah blah blah... Much the same reasons that I don't like any other sport. So yell at me about that too will you?



Because it's become a new form of religion.

Right. Except for all the differences, sports is just like religion. Remember health? Is this thing on? One, two. Tap tap tap. Health. Can you hear me at the back?

I've managed just fine without sport, I've never needed it and I don't need it now. I get my health kicks the way I want them, and my physicians are very happy with that.

I was not arguing that health is impossible without sport, I was arguing that participation in sport is good for the health of the nation. I'm sure that you are the model of health , and you have doubtless managed to avoid sweating throughout your life but for us ordinary mortals, sweating is healthy and sports that make us sweat are healthy.

I'm happy for you. Please tell that to the newsreaders the next time they show obese kids on TV - get them to play sport!

No, I don't want other people to hate it. I just don't like to see people's minds being controlled by anything. It's the obsessiveness about it that gets to me, the idea that you can't possibly be loyal to your tribe unless you worship the sports heroes that represent your tribe, that you can't possibly be healthy unless you sweat your spare time away.


Oh it's evil mind control now is it? Christ, you know how to lay it on thick, don't you?
You talk about sweat as if it's a bad thing. Sweat is effort, it's perseverance. It's nothing to fear, we have showers now, you can wash after sweating.

You're so lucky that you don't have a mental condition that makes some things abhorrent to you, like sweat on your skin, fruit juice on your hands, water on the floor, sand on the floor, balls on your bed linen, food that makes you vomit because it has textures you don't like. Don't be so goddamned judgmental about other people's issues. I don't like sweating, and I'm not going to start liking it or get conditioned to like it just to agree with you. I also don't expect you to start disliking sport, or fruit juice on your hands, because I don't.

Wait, I'm judgemental for challenging your judgements on sport? Because you have issues regarding sweat, I cannot extol the virtues of it? Here's what I think, if you judge the global joy of sport on the basis of your mental health issues, you are probably going to find your criticisms criticised. I am not judging you on the basis of your mental health, I am arguing against your position on sport. Your "poor me" defence" is a little insulting to us both.

Did I say "poor me" you're the one who told me I should get over disliking sweat pouring into my eyes. I'm merely pointing out your lack of understanding for it being painful, and I am perfectly healthy mentally thank you. I merely have a pervasive condition that precludes me from finding pleasure in being uncomfortable, whether that applies to sweating, and sensitive to extreme weather conditions, among other things, like the socialisation that is required when playing sport. This does not mean that I am ill.

Anyway, I'm not going to talk to you about this anymore. You appear to lump everyone into single groups: the healthy who spend their lives running around chasing balls, and the unhealthy who "hate" sports. You're ignoring all the couch potatoes who stuff fast foods down their faces while the spend entire weekends doing nothing but watching sport on TV. Maybe we should either stop before it becomes personal, or start all over again with:

I do not find any pleasure in playing sports, I also do not find any pleasure in watching it on TV. End of discussion. I don't need to explain myself, not to anyone. Now leave it at that.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#162  Postby Banzai! » Jan 10, 2014 11:49 am

Come on, man. You know better than that.

See how quickly a building goes up with two construction teams competing versus the same numbers of guys on one construction team cooperating. There are real problems in the world besides kicking a ball between a couple of posts. The lessons learned on the latter don't apply particularly well to solving the former.



what a lot of rubbish, there are 10 other players on your football team and all of you are supposed to be working together to get the ball in the goal and as well as keeping the ball out of your own goal. I work in an office now I am a grown up and all of us are (supposed to be) working together to bring in fees and keep the salaries paid, there are obvious parallels.

Why do businesses do "team building" away days, presumably to try to foster the same sort of team environment that exists on a saturday afternoon on village greens across the country.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#163  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 11:51 am

The_Metatron wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:To be able to claim that sport builds character, you have to be able to define character, measure it, and show that people who play team sports have more of it than those who do not.

Good luck with that.

I agree. To claim that sport does not build character, one must do the same, no?
I don't think I have claimed that sports "builds character" (although I think a decent argument could be made despite the difficulties in definition), have I?

If I were trying to claim it does not, that is what would have to be done. Judging from the widespread (nearly universal) prevalence of sporting culture in America, for example, and weighing that against my estimate of the average American's character, I have to conclude that scant evidence exists to support the notion that sports builds character.

Whatever character is.


Actually I did not mean to suggest that it was you. It was Aggie that was riffing on the alleged building of character. My point was that it was not my claim, however I think it is a reasonable claim to make once we can solved the definitional problem you highlighted.
I think it's reasonable to think that we achieve highly through competition, just look at the incredible achievements of elite sportsmen, way above and beyond that which ordinary people can achieve.
I think it's reasonable to think that participating in a team game helps improve the participants ability to work efficiently within a team. As a great deal of life's endeavours take place in a team setting, I think the potential benefits are clear.
There are a great many practical life lessons to be gained from setting a goal and competing in order to achieve it, do you disagree?
Would you think these suggestions could reasonable called "character", or not?
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Re: Spectator Sports

#164  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 11:51 am

trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Then there's the other platitude about how sport "builds character." I've heard that one a few times, that children should be encouraged to play sport, because it "builds character." So what does that mean? I'll do a google:

The "Urban Dictionary" defines it as:

1. builds character
Any task, activity or event which is painful, humiliating, upsetting, violent or distressing to the person experiencing the said task, activity or event.


So activities should be "painful, humiliating, upsetting, violent or distressing to the person experiencing it," in order for our children to be able to stand up to the curve balls (sports metaphor) that life throws that them. We should subject them to "painful, humiliating, upsetting and violent" activities in order for them to be people who other people respect. This sounds like, to me, that bullying is a good thing, teasing, is a good thing, causing them to experience brain injuries from playing rugby, is a good thing, embarrassing them in front of their peers when they can't kick a ball, or hit it with a club, is good for them.

I think not.

Then where does this "character building" get them: how many scandals do we know about among sports people? Tiger Woods, apparently his sport built his character so well, he cheated on his wife. South Africa's great cricket captain, Hansie Cronje who was killed in a plane accident after he received a lifetime ban from the sport, was convicted of match-fixing along with, if I remember correctly, Indian or Pakistan cricketers, great character that playing cricket built there. Then there is of course our blade runner, Oscar Pistorius who has been held up, since he was at school, as a model of great "character" because of how he succeeded in his running career despite his disabilities, shot and killed his girlfriend last year. I can't really pass judgment on that one, since he hasn't yet been convicted, and it's not my place to try him on this forum. But character-building? Give me a geek, who doesn't play any sport but who gives away his income on a regular basis, without demanding media attention for his philanthropy, over a Tiger Woods, a Hansie Cronje, or an Oscar Pistorius any day. I'm sure other people can point out some other examples of "great character" of this sort built by sport.

While I accept that sport was not directly to blame for the corruption, or murderous intent of people who incidentally happened to also be employed in the sports arena, I don't need anyone held up to me as an example of how I should live my life.

It is my life, and I'll choose to live it the way I see fit. I won't be lectured by anyone about how I should be tolerant of people wanting to take over my living room to watch their entertainment, while I'm told off for wanting to watch mine, or for being odd because sweat stings my eyes and irritates my skin. That's who I am, like it, don't like it. I'm not changing my mind about not worshipping people as fallible as I am myself.

Wait, you are building your attack on sport on the basis of a Urban Dictionary definition? You can't really expect me to take that seriously, can you?

Oh for Christ's sake I used that definition so shoot me for using it. It seems not fancying trawling the internet for stuff only applies to some people!
You don't like people enjoying watching sport, you don't like the sweat from people playing sport and you don't like the idea of sport building character? Fine but your arguments are ridiculous in the extreme. You want to criticise sports because some sportsmen are imperfect? Really? How convincing do you expect that to be exactly?

My comment about character building has nothing to do with the other discussion.
Do you expect us to go "Oooh, she's right, some sportsmen have character flaws, therefore sports are a waste of time."?

No, I don't expect anything from you except a row.
And just for the record, I don't recall anyone telling you that sports is how you should live your life. If you want to work on your health in other ways, or totally disregard your health altogether, that's just fine with me. All I want to do is point out poor arguments when I see them. You started by criticising sport and I sought to challenge your arguments. I think they have been shockingly mistaken.

I'm literally rolling my eyes now.
If you're not interested in what I have to say, why are you even talking to me.
In your opinion. Just like every other sport fanatic, I'm wrong and you're right. Whoop-de-bloody-do as if I actually care about the opinion of some person who responds to me on the internet.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#165  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 11:53 am

The_Metatron wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
trubble76 wrote:.... All I can say is, a world without sport (without ritual combat, as you put it) is definitely not preferable to one with no sports at all (no combat, as you you put it), even if your wishful thinking magically evaporated the apparent competitive nature of most humans.

You're nearly there.

I have found that in all cases cooperation is far more effective than competition to reach a common goal.

Got me there! I can't think of a single sport which encourages co-operation. Not one. Can anyone help me out?

Come on, man. You know better than that.

I don't follow. I think co-operation can have many benefits. I also think competition can have many benefits. Which do you disagree with?

See how quickly a building goes up with two construction teams competing versus the same numbers of guys on one construction team cooperating. There are real problems in the world besides kicking a ball between a couple of posts. The lessons learned on the latter don't apply particularly well to solving the former.


I agree that co-operation can lead to significant gains. I also think the same can be said of competition. Why is that a problem?
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Re: Spectator Sports

#166  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 11:56 am

trubble76 wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:To be able to claim that sport builds character, you have to be able to define character, measure it, and show that people who play team sports have more of it than those who do not.

Good luck with that.

I agree. To claim that sport does not build character, one must do the same, no?
I don't think I have claimed that sports "builds character" (although I think a decent argument could be made despite the difficulties in definition), have I?

If I were trying to claim it does not, that is what would have to be done. Judging from the widespread (nearly universal) prevalence of sporting culture in America, for example, and weighing that against my estimate of the average American's character, I have to conclude that scant evidence exists to support the notion that sports builds character.

Whatever character is.


Actually I did not mean to suggest that it was you. It was Aggie that was riffing on the alleged building of character. My point was that it was not my claim, however I think it is a reasonable claim to make once we can solved the definitional problem you highlighted.
I think it's reasonable to think that we achieve highly through competition, just look at the incredible achievements of elite sportsmen, way above and beyond that which ordinary people can achieve.
I think it's reasonable to think that participating in a team game helps improve the participants ability to work efficiently within a team. As a great deal of life's endeavours take place in a team setting, I think the potential benefits are clear.
There are a great many practical life lessons to be gained from setting a goal and competing in order to achieve it, do you disagree?
Would you think these suggestions could reasonable called "character", or not?


"Character-building" is the cry of the bully. It's ok to tease another kid on the playground, he must "learn to take it." It's the cry of the PT teacher who tells the child with autism that "maybe throwing a ball will stop you flapping your hands, and make you more acceptable in society" or "maybe playing sport will teach you to live around other people" yes, exactly, be cruel to someone who hates the way their hands flap or who dies a thousand deaths every time they have to go to a new school, or meet a new classmate. You have to be cruel, it will build the child's character.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#167  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 11:58 am

trubble76 wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
You're nearly there.

I have found that in all cases cooperation is far more effective than competition to reach a common goal.

Got me there! I can't think of a single sport which encourages co-operation. Not one. Can anyone help me out?

Come on, man. You know better than that.

I don't follow. I think co-operation can have many benefits. I also think competition can have many benefits. Which do you disagree with?

Name some benefits of competitiveness for someone who doesn't get it please?

See how quickly a building goes up with two construction teams competing versus the same numbers of guys on one construction team cooperating. There are real problems in the world besides kicking a ball between a couple of posts. The lessons learned on the latter don't apply particularly well to solving the former.


I agree that co-operation can lead to significant gains. I also think the same can be said of competition. Why is that a problem?

Again, name some benefits of co-operation for someone who prefers to do everything on their own.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#168  Postby Panderos » Jan 10, 2014 12:03 pm

I'm With Stupid wrote:I didn't say the wages benefit the economy, I said the product itself benefits the economy.

Ah I see. That sentence I quoted before I misunderstood.

I'm With Stupid wrote:Look at the amount of money being pumped into Manchester by the Abu Dhabi royal family, creating jobs and opportunities for lots of people. That money would've never arrived if the Premier League wasn't such an exciting product with world wide appeal.

Yes, sport can benefit one country as an export, that applies to any product from oil to opium. I was specifically focusing on high wages, which you weren't defending, so I'll be quiet now.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#169  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 12:07 pm

Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Do you realise what you did there? You said you don't ignore the benefits and then went on to show how you've ignored the benefits, again. Let's try once more....HEALTH!


No need to shout. You get your good health your way, and I'll deal with my issues my way OK?

Sorry for shouting but at that stage I had lost count of how many times you had overlooked "health" as a benefit of sport.

When I see the general population of the western world participating in sport, and not being shown on the news as being "overweight" and "obese," compared with the communities of places that don't have television, never mind general organised sport, I'll agree with you. "Health" might be a benefit to the people who play the sport, it's not a benefit to people who sit on their couches yelling at referees. Unless you think that yelling is a form of sport.

You think they don't play sport in developing world communities? I think if you travel the poorest parts of the world, one of the most striking things is how commonly you'll see a football being kicked around.
Yes many westerners are unhealthy, yes, I think if they could be encouraged to do more sport then they would be more healthy.


You have invented a lot of stuff to hate. We all need hobbies, I guess. Sport is better than hate, in my opinion.

"Hate" is perhaps too harsh a term to express my feelings about anything. I don't really "hate" things, I just don't need them in my life, like sport and other religions. You have your opinions about sport, and I'll have mine. I'm old enough to decide what I want for the rest of my life and it doesn't include ball games, OK?

Oh sorry, you were talking hatefully about sport, using words like "hate", I mistakenly assumed you meant "hate".
You are welcome to hold whatever opinions you wish about sport, just as I can attempt to argue that you are terribly mistaken in your opinions. If you had written off music, I would have argued against you just as vigorously. I occasionally hear people writing off sport, this forum seems the ideal opportunity to address the misleading accusations and poor argumentation used against things like sport.
Your objections to sport seem to consist of disliking the people who share your house and a distaste for sweat. It's a nonsense.

That's right pick one of the reasons that I dislike sport, and harp on that. There are a whole lot of reasons, those are only two of them. Do you rant at people who dislike computers, or fishing, or hang gliding in the same way? Let's see these are the reasons I hear people telling me why they don't like computers: I don't see the point of them, people sit on them all day talking to strangers, when they could be socialising in the real world, I don't like staring at a screen all day, I prefer to watch television, and especially sport instead, how can you be healthy and chat online all day? Hang gliding, I don't know anyone who likes hang gliding, so I wouldn't know about it. Fishing, I don't fancy that either: smelly, boring, quiet, blah blah blah... Much the same reasons that I don't like any other sport. So yell at me about that too will you?

No, I don't need to "harp" on one reason you hate sport (I wonder how I can discuss it without "harping"), I think all the reasons you have given are awful, and have attempted to explain why. I "rant" at people who give poor reasons, whatever the subject may be. I am not "yelling" at you because you don't like sport, I'm arguing against you because you gave some truly awful reasons for your position. I think sport is beneficial, I have tried to defend that position, despite your emotional attempts at awful argumentation.


Right. Except for all the differences, sports is just like religion. Remember health? Is this thing on? One, two. Tap tap tap. Health. Can you hear me at the back?

I've managed just fine without sport, I've never needed it and I don't need it now. I get my health kicks the way I want them, and my physicians are very happy with that.

I was not arguing that health is impossible without sport, I was arguing that participation in sport is good for the health of the nation. I'm sure that you are the model of health , and you have doubtless managed to avoid sweating throughout your life but for us ordinary mortals, sweating is healthy and sports that make us sweat are healthy.

I'm happy for you. Please tell that to the newsreaders the next time they show obese kids on TV - get them to play sport!

I would be delighted too. Would you tell them the opposite? "Don't do sports, kids, it's no good for you!"


Oh it's evil mind control now is it? Christ, you know how to lay it on thick, don't you?
You talk about sweat as if it's a bad thing. Sweat is effort, it's perseverance. It's nothing to fear, we have showers now, you can wash after sweating.

You're so lucky that you don't have a mental condition that makes some things abhorrent to you, like sweat on your skin, fruit juice on your hands, water on the floor, sand on the floor, balls on your bed linen, food that makes you vomit because it has textures you don't like. Don't be so goddamned judgmental about other people's issues. I don't like sweating, and I'm not going to start liking it or get conditioned to like it just to agree with you. I also don't expect you to start disliking sport, or fruit juice on your hands, because I don't.

Wait, I'm judgemental for challenging your judgements on sport? Because you have issues regarding sweat, I cannot extol the virtues of it? Here's what I think, if you judge the global joy of sport on the basis of your mental health issues, you are probably going to find your criticisms criticised. I am not judging you on the basis of your mental health, I am arguing against your position on sport. Your "poor me" defence" is a little insulting to us both.

Did I say "poor me" you're the one who told me I should get over disliking sweat pouring into my eyes. I'm merely pointing out your lack of understanding for it being painful, and I am perfectly healthy mentally thank you. I merely have a pervasive condition that precludes me from finding pleasure in being uncomfortable, whether that applies to sweating, and sensitive to extreme weather conditions, among other things, like the socialisation that is required when playing sport. This does not mean that I am ill.

When exactly did I say that you should get over disliking sweat pouring into my eyes? Why are you making shit up now? You are not ill, okay fine, then maybe you should stop using it as an excuse. "Sweat is terrible has to be the god-awful argument against sport I have ever heard. I think if more people say that sort of rubbish then people will get less and less healthy. I think your position is harmful to society.

Anyway, I'm not going to talk to you about this anymore. You appear to lump everyone into single groups: the healthy who spend their lives running around chasing balls, and the unhealthy who "hate" sports. You're ignoring all the couch potatoes who stuff fast foods down their faces while the spend entire weekends doing nothing but watching sport on TV. Maybe we should either stop before it becomes personal, or start all over again with:

I do not find any pleasure in playing sports, I also do not find any pleasure in watching it on TV. End of discussion. I don't need to explain myself, not to anyone. Now leave it at that.

How have I done any of that lumping into groups? You are making stuff up again. I have none of the things you have accused me off, you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting me. I have claimed that sports are beneficial to individuals and societies. I have tried to counter your somewhat bemusing claims, the rest you have simply invented.
As I have already said, you are welcome to dislike sport but if you criticise sports here, I will defend it. You are the one who has made it personal, don't blame me.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#170  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 12:10 pm

Just look at the arguments in this thread, among people who usually agree about most other issues. Get a bunch of people together, one group who dislike sport (or hate it, or are indifferent to it, or don't watch it, whatever) and another who are religious followers of it, and you get big fights just stopping short of ad hom attacks. Can't we all just live and let live. Get another TV, use another device to watch something else, go for a walk, go live on a desert island... you're never going to get sports fanatics to admit that you might just have a point. Neither are you going to get the people who "hate" it to admit that the other side might be making a good point. So I'm bowing out of here. It's too stressful.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#171  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 12:15 pm

trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:

No need to shout. You get your good health your way, and I'll deal with my issues my way OK?

Sorry for shouting but at that stage I had lost count of how many times you had overlooked "health" as a benefit of sport.

When I see the general population of the western world participating in sport, and not being shown on the news as being "overweight" and "obese," compared with the communities of places that don't have television, never mind general organised sport, I'll agree with you. "Health" might be a benefit to the people who play the sport, it's not a benefit to people who sit on their couches yelling at referees. Unless you think that yelling is a form of sport.

You think they don't play sport in developing world communities? I think if you travel the poorest parts of the world, one of the most striking things is how commonly you'll see a football being kicked around.
Yes many westerners are unhealthy, yes, I think if they could be encouraged to do more sport then they would be more healthy.


"Hate" is perhaps too harsh a term to express my feelings about anything. I don't really "hate" things, I just don't need them in my life, like sport and other religions. You have your opinions about sport, and I'll have mine. I'm old enough to decide what I want for the rest of my life and it doesn't include ball games, OK?

Oh sorry, you were talking hatefully about sport, using words like "hate", I mistakenly assumed you meant "hate".
You are welcome to hold whatever opinions you wish about sport, just as I can attempt to argue that you are terribly mistaken in your opinions. If you had written off music, I would have argued against you just as vigorously. I occasionally hear people writing off sport, this forum seems the ideal opportunity to address the misleading accusations and poor argumentation used against things like sport.
Your objections to sport seem to consist of disliking the people who share your house and a distaste for sweat. It's a nonsense.

That's right pick one of the reasons that I dislike sport, and harp on that. There are a whole lot of reasons, those are only two of them. Do you rant at people who dislike computers, or fishing, or hang gliding in the same way? Let's see these are the reasons I hear people telling me why they don't like computers: I don't see the point of them, people sit on them all day talking to strangers, when they could be socialising in the real world, I don't like staring at a screen all day, I prefer to watch television, and especially sport instead, how can you be healthy and chat online all day? Hang gliding, I don't know anyone who likes hang gliding, so I wouldn't know about it. Fishing, I don't fancy that either: smelly, boring, quiet, blah blah blah... Much the same reasons that I don't like any other sport. So yell at me about that too will you?

No, I don't need to "harp" on one reason you hate sport (I wonder how I can discuss it without "harping"), I think all the reasons you have given are awful, and have attempted to explain why. I "rant" at people who give poor reasons, whatever the subject may be. I am not "yelling" at you because you don't like sport, I'm arguing against you because you gave some truly awful reasons for your position. I think sport is beneficial, I have tried to defend that position, despite your emotional attempts at awful argumentation.


I've managed just fine without sport, I've never needed it and I don't need it now. I get my health kicks the way I want them, and my physicians are very happy with that.

I was not arguing that health is impossible without sport, I was arguing that participation in sport is good for the health of the nation. I'm sure that you are the model of health , and you have doubtless managed to avoid sweating throughout your life but for us ordinary mortals, sweating is healthy and sports that make us sweat are healthy.

I'm happy for you. Please tell that to the newsreaders the next time they show obese kids on TV - get them to play sport!

I would be delighted too. Would you tell them the opposite? "Don't do sports, kids, it's no good for you!"

You're so lucky that you don't have a mental condition that makes some things abhorrent to you, like sweat on your skin, fruit juice on your hands, water on the floor, sand on the floor, balls on your bed linen, food that makes you vomit because it has textures you don't like. Don't be so goddamned judgmental about other people's issues. I don't like sweating, and I'm not going to start liking it or get conditioned to like it just to agree with you. I also don't expect you to start disliking sport, or fruit juice on your hands, because I don't.

Wait, I'm judgemental for challenging your judgements on sport? Because you have issues regarding sweat, I cannot extol the virtues of it? Here's what I think, if you judge the global joy of sport on the basis of your mental health issues, you are probably going to find your criticisms criticised. I am not judging you on the basis of your mental health, I am arguing against your position on sport. Your "poor me" defence" is a little insulting to us both.

Did I say "poor me" you're the one who told me I should get over disliking sweat pouring into my eyes. I'm merely pointing out your lack of understanding for it being painful, and I am perfectly healthy mentally thank you. I merely have a pervasive condition that precludes me from finding pleasure in being uncomfortable, whether that applies to sweating, and sensitive to extreme weather conditions, among other things, like the socialisation that is required when playing sport. This does not mean that I am ill.

When exactly did I say that you should get over disliking sweat pouring into my eyes? Why are you making shit up now? You are not ill, okay fine, then maybe you should stop using it as an excuse. "Sweat is terrible has to be the god-awful argument against sport I have ever heard. I think if more people say that sort of rubbish then people will get less and less healthy. I think your position is harmful to society.

Anyway, I'm not going to talk to you about this anymore. You appear to lump everyone into single groups: the healthy who spend their lives running around chasing balls, and the unhealthy who "hate" sports. You're ignoring all the couch potatoes who stuff fast foods down their faces while the spend entire weekends doing nothing but watching sport on TV. Maybe we should either stop before it becomes personal, or start all over again with:

I do not find any pleasure in playing sports, I also do not find any pleasure in watching it on TV. End of discussion. I don't need to explain myself, not to anyone. Now leave it at that.

How have I done any of that lumping into groups? You are making stuff up again. I have none of the things you have accused me off, you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting me. I have claimed that sports are beneficial to individuals and societies. I have tried to counter your somewhat bemusing claims, the rest you have simply invented.
As I have already said, you are welcome to dislike sport but if you criticise sports here, I will defend it. You are the one who has made it personal, don't blame me.


This has just become ridiculous now. You win! Sport good: Aggie and her opinions bad. Happy now? Bad Mrs Aggie. :nono: :nono:
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Re: Spectator Sports

#172  Postby Scarlett » Jan 10, 2014 12:17 pm

Aggi, to be honest the person who's acting unreasonably here is you I'm afraid. You keep repeating your own, very personal issues with sport, and your own personal vision of it as a 'religion', sports fans MUST be fanatics (trubs has not come across as fanatical at all!). You're digging your heels in and it making you really unreasonable :nono:

This has just become ridiculous now. You win! Sport good: Aggie and her opinions bad. Happy now? Bad Mrs Aggie. :nono: :nono:


To be honest, some of your posts on this topic have been 'bad' and 'ridiculous'.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#173  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 12:18 pm

Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:Then there's the other platitude about how sport "builds character." I've heard that one a few times, that children should be encouraged to play sport, because it "builds character." So what does that mean? I'll do a google:

The "Urban Dictionary" defines it as:

1. builds character
Any task, activity or event which is painful, humiliating, upsetting, violent or distressing to the person experiencing the said task, activity or event.


So activities should be "painful, humiliating, upsetting, violent or distressing to the person experiencing it," in order for our children to be able to stand up to the curve balls (sports metaphor) that life throws that them. We should subject them to "painful, humiliating, upsetting and violent" activities in order for them to be people who other people respect. This sounds like, to me, that bullying is a good thing, teasing, is a good thing, causing them to experience brain injuries from playing rugby, is a good thing, embarrassing them in front of their peers when they can't kick a ball, or hit it with a club, is good for them.

I think not.

Then where does this "character building" get them: how many scandals do we know about among sports people? Tiger Woods, apparently his sport built his character so well, he cheated on his wife. South Africa's great cricket captain, Hansie Cronje who was killed in a plane accident after he received a lifetime ban from the sport, was convicted of match-fixing along with, if I remember correctly, Indian or Pakistan cricketers, great character that playing cricket built there. Then there is of course our blade runner, Oscar Pistorius who has been held up, since he was at school, as a model of great "character" because of how he succeeded in his running career despite his disabilities, shot and killed his girlfriend last year. I can't really pass judgment on that one, since he hasn't yet been convicted, and it's not my place to try him on this forum. But character-building? Give me a geek, who doesn't play any sport but who gives away his income on a regular basis, without demanding media attention for his philanthropy, over a Tiger Woods, a Hansie Cronje, or an Oscar Pistorius any day. I'm sure other people can point out some other examples of "great character" of this sort built by sport.

While I accept that sport was not directly to blame for the corruption, or murderous intent of people who incidentally happened to also be employed in the sports arena, I don't need anyone held up to me as an example of how I should live my life.

It is my life, and I'll choose to live it the way I see fit. I won't be lectured by anyone about how I should be tolerant of people wanting to take over my living room to watch their entertainment, while I'm told off for wanting to watch mine, or for being odd because sweat stings my eyes and irritates my skin. That's who I am, like it, don't like it. I'm not changing my mind about not worshipping people as fallible as I am myself.

Wait, you are building your attack on sport on the basis of a Urban Dictionary definition? You can't really expect me to take that seriously, can you?

Oh for Christ's sake I used that definition so shoot me for using it. It seems not fancying trawling the internet for stuff only applies to some people!

I don't care whether you trawl the internet or not. I do not think your building of an attack on based on a "humourous" definition supplied by Urban Dictionary is going to be convincing. I think the definition is ridiculous, the question is why don't you?
You don't like people enjoying watching sport, you don't like the sweat from people playing sport and you don't like the idea of sport building character? Fine but your arguments are ridiculous in the extreme. You want to criticise sports because some sportsmen are imperfect? Really? How convincing do you expect that to be exactly?

My comment about character building has nothing to do with the other discussion.
Eh?
Do you expect us to go "Oooh, she's right, some sportsmen have character flaws, therefore sports are a waste of time."?

No, I don't expect anything from you except a row.

Well then, why did you write it if you knew it was silly? Especially if you are going it take it personally when I point out how silly it is?
And just for the record, I don't recall anyone telling you that sports is how you should live your life. If you want to work on your health in other ways, or totally disregard your health altogether, that's just fine with me. All I want to do is point out poor arguments when I see them. You started by criticising sport and I sought to challenge your arguments. I think they have been shockingly mistaken.

I'm literally rolling my eyes now.
If you're not interested in what I have to say, why are you even talking to me.
In your opinion. Just like every other sport fanatic, I'm wrong and you're right. Whoop-de-bloody-do as if I actually care about the opinion of some person who responds to me on the internet.

Roll your eyes all you like. I am talking to you because I am interested in what you say. I disagree strongly but you seem to have taken it as a personal attack. I'm not going to agree with you just because I like you. If I think you are writing silly things, I'm going to say so. None of it has been an attack on you, despite your defenciveness.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#174  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 12:19 pm

Scarlett wrote:Aggi, to be honest the person who's acting unreasonably here is you I'm afraid. You keep repeating your own, very personal issues with sport, and your own personal vision of it as a 'religion', sports fans MUST be fanatics (trubs has not come across as fanatical at all!). You're digging your heels in and it making you really unreasonable :nono:

This has just become ridiculous now. You win! Sport good: Aggie and her opinions bad. Happy now? Bad Mrs Aggie. :nono: :nono:


To be honest, some of your posts on this topic have been 'bad' and 'ridiculous'.


Thanks Scarlett, you've only repeated all the stuff I've been told all my life. It's hard to see the world the way I do, not for me but for other people. It's the reason that I stay away from people in the real world. Maybe I should actually just kill myself.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#175  Postby Scarlett » Jan 10, 2014 12:24 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Scarlett wrote:Aggi, to be honest the person who's acting unreasonably here is you I'm afraid. You keep repeating your own, very personal issues with sport, and your own personal vision of it as a 'religion', sports fans MUST be fanatics (trubs has not come across as fanatical at all!). You're digging your heels in and it making you really unreasonable :nono:

This has just become ridiculous now. You win! Sport good: Aggie and her opinions bad. Happy now? Bad Mrs Aggie. :nono: :nono:


To be honest, some of your posts on this topic have been 'bad' and 'ridiculous'.


Thanks Scarlett, you've only repeated all the stuff I've been told all my life. It's hard to see the world the way I do, not for me but for other people. It's the reason that I stay away from people in the real world. Maybe I should actually just kill myself.


Oh fgs Aggi, you're perfectly free to see the world however you choose. The problem comes when you get defensive and insist on other people seeing the world the way you see it. People may disagree with you from time to time, it's not a personal slight.

I would have thought someone who holds such strong, firm opinions should be more open to debating them.

And nothing I said deserved the emotional trip you just gave me. Low blow.

I'm leaving you to it Aggi, it's not worth it :nono:
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Re: Spectator Sports

#176  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 12:29 pm

Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Got me there! I can't think of a single sport which encourages co-operation. Not one. Can anyone help me out?

Come on, man. You know better than that.

I don't follow. I think co-operation can have many benefits. I also think competition can have many benefits. Which do you disagree with?

Name some benefits of competitiveness for someone who doesn't get it please?

I can offer you some examples if you like. When NASA wanted to encourage private companies and individuals to design various items, it created a competition. I think everyone could see the value of competition there.
In a sporting setting, it encourages people to set ambitious targets and to put their full effort into achieving them. It gets people back on to the proverbial horse, it teaches people that they can push themselves to their limits and achieve incredible things that benefit them personally and their social group as a whole. More than that, life on Earth is dependent on the ability of competition to promote achievement and reward success. Human sports are not quite as brutal as nature though, we don't kill the losers.
If you don't like my examples, I'd bet google can offer a virtually endless list of how competition helps in any field imaginable.

See how quickly a building goes up with two construction teams competing versus the same numbers of guys on one construction team cooperating. There are real problems in the world besides kicking a ball between a couple of posts. The lessons learned on the latter don't apply particularly well to solving the former.


I agree that co-operation can lead to significant gains. I also think the same can be said of competition. Why is that a problem?

Again, name some benefits of co-operation for someone who prefers to do everything on their own.

You do everything on your own do you? Well competition can help individuals too. For example, I sometimes play golf. When I do I sometimes compete against the course, which means I set myself a target and try to reach it. Sometimes I play two balls, playing A against B. Simple competitions like that can lead to significant gains, if not in performance, then in enjoyment. Why is this such a problem for you to grasp? I don't see why you are so personally involved in denouncing sport and all it achieves. I know you don't like sport but surely it's possible to dislike it and still recognise it has benefits for other people?
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Re: Spectator Sports

#177  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 12:34 pm

Agrippina wrote:Just look at the arguments in this thread, among people who usually agree about most other issues. Get a bunch of people together, one group who dislike sport (or hate it, or are indifferent to it, or don't watch it, whatever) and another who are religious followers of it, and you get big fights just stopping short of ad hom attacks. Can't we all just live and let live. Get another TV, use another device to watch something else, go for a walk, go live on a desert island... you're never going to get sports fanatics to admit that you might just have a point. Neither are you going to get the people who "hate" it to admit that the other side might be making a good point. So I'm bowing out of here. It's too stressful.


Wait a sec. Who is a religious follower of sport here?
What big fights? I have just been arguing against you, it's what we do here.
Ad-hom attacks? Well, I have been accused of being fanatical by more than one person but for my part I'm simply trying to counter some of the less reasonable posts that have been coming my way.
Yes we can live and let live, does that mean we can't disagree? Why have you made this so personal?
I don't want to get you to like sport, you like what you like, no arguments are going to change that, I simply disagreed with some of the silly stuff you posted and you have reacted badly. My aim is just to defend sport and the idea that sport is general beneficial to society, this has earnt your ire for some reason.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#178  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 12:37 pm

Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Sorry for shouting but at that stage I had lost count of how many times you had overlooked "health" as a benefit of sport.

When I see the general population of the western world participating in sport, and not being shown on the news as being "overweight" and "obese," compared with the communities of places that don't have television, never mind general organised sport, I'll agree with you. "Health" might be a benefit to the people who play the sport, it's not a benefit to people who sit on their couches yelling at referees. Unless you think that yelling is a form of sport.

You think they don't play sport in developing world communities? I think if you travel the poorest parts of the world, one of the most striking things is how commonly you'll see a football being kicked around.
Yes many westerners are unhealthy, yes, I think if they could be encouraged to do more sport then they would be more healthy.


Oh sorry, you were talking hatefully about sport, using words like "hate", I mistakenly assumed you meant "hate".
You are welcome to hold whatever opinions you wish about sport, just as I can attempt to argue that you are terribly mistaken in your opinions. If you had written off music, I would have argued against you just as vigorously. I occasionally hear people writing off sport, this forum seems the ideal opportunity to address the misleading accusations and poor argumentation used against things like sport.
Your objections to sport seem to consist of disliking the people who share your house and a distaste for sweat. It's a nonsense.

That's right pick one of the reasons that I dislike sport, and harp on that. There are a whole lot of reasons, those are only two of them. Do you rant at people who dislike computers, or fishing, or hang gliding in the same way? Let's see these are the reasons I hear people telling me why they don't like computers: I don't see the point of them, people sit on them all day talking to strangers, when they could be socialising in the real world, I don't like staring at a screen all day, I prefer to watch television, and especially sport instead, how can you be healthy and chat online all day? Hang gliding, I don't know anyone who likes hang gliding, so I wouldn't know about it. Fishing, I don't fancy that either: smelly, boring, quiet, blah blah blah... Much the same reasons that I don't like any other sport. So yell at me about that too will you?

No, I don't need to "harp" on one reason you hate sport (I wonder how I can discuss it without "harping"), I think all the reasons you have given are awful, and have attempted to explain why. I "rant" at people who give poor reasons, whatever the subject may be. I am not "yelling" at you because you don't like sport, I'm arguing against you because you gave some truly awful reasons for your position. I think sport is beneficial, I have tried to defend that position, despite your emotional attempts at awful argumentation.


I was not arguing that health is impossible without sport, I was arguing that participation in sport is good for the health of the nation. I'm sure that you are the model of health , and you have doubtless managed to avoid sweating throughout your life but for us ordinary mortals, sweating is healthy and sports that make us sweat are healthy.

I'm happy for you. Please tell that to the newsreaders the next time they show obese kids on TV - get them to play sport!

I would be delighted too. Would you tell them the opposite? "Don't do sports, kids, it's no good for you!"

Wait, I'm judgemental for challenging your judgements on sport? Because you have issues regarding sweat, I cannot extol the virtues of it? Here's what I think, if you judge the global joy of sport on the basis of your mental health issues, you are probably going to find your criticisms criticised. I am not judging you on the basis of your mental health, I am arguing against your position on sport. Your "poor me" defence" is a little insulting to us both.

Did I say "poor me" you're the one who told me I should get over disliking sweat pouring into my eyes. I'm merely pointing out your lack of understanding for it being painful, and I am perfectly healthy mentally thank you. I merely have a pervasive condition that precludes me from finding pleasure in being uncomfortable, whether that applies to sweating, and sensitive to extreme weather conditions, among other things, like the socialisation that is required when playing sport. This does not mean that I am ill.

When exactly did I say that you should get over disliking sweat pouring into my eyes? Why are you making shit up now? You are not ill, okay fine, then maybe you should stop using it as an excuse. "Sweat is terrible has to be the god-awful argument against sport I have ever heard. I think if more people say that sort of rubbish then people will get less and less healthy. I think your position is harmful to society.

Anyway, I'm not going to talk to you about this anymore. You appear to lump everyone into single groups: the healthy who spend their lives running around chasing balls, and the unhealthy who "hate" sports. You're ignoring all the couch potatoes who stuff fast foods down their faces while the spend entire weekends doing nothing but watching sport on TV. Maybe we should either stop before it becomes personal, or start all over again with:

I do not find any pleasure in playing sports, I also do not find any pleasure in watching it on TV. End of discussion. I don't need to explain myself, not to anyone. Now leave it at that.

How have I done any of that lumping into groups? You are making stuff up again. I have none of the things you have accused me off, you seem to be deliberately misrepresenting me. I have claimed that sports are beneficial to individuals and societies. I have tried to counter your somewhat bemusing claims, the rest you have simply invented.
As I have already said, you are welcome to dislike sport but if you criticise sports here, I will defend it. You are the one who has made it personal, don't blame me.


This has just become ridiculous now. You win! Sport good: Aggie and her opinions bad. Happy now? Bad Mrs Aggie. :nono: :nono:


Look, you can flounce off all you want, I will not force you to discuss sport, even if I could. You have made some comments with which I disagreed but you seem to be taking my defence of sport and its benefits as a personal fight. Why, I could not say.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#179  Postby babel » Jan 10, 2014 12:38 pm

I've been a practitioner of competitive volleyball for a little under 20 years and now I do sports once a week. That's barely enough to maintain a good physique, but it's primarily the mental stimulus it gives me that motivates me to get out of bed early for the weekly match.
I feel refreshed, mentally, afterwards. After the match, both teams typically have a drink together. We've played each other countless times and have become mates first, adversaries second.
During my competitive period, we never fought after a match, never had lasting heated discussions and when we went to check out the first team's matches, we noticed that there were only two cops taking care of trafic before and after the game and during the game, they came in and enjoyed the game as well. This in contrast to when a football match was scheduled. Cops on horses to contain the masses.

On the 'building character' stuff: I have been a trainer for 14-16 old year olds. It was a joy to work with most of them. You can't magically transform shitty characters in perfect human beings or anything close to it. But I have received quite a few compliments from parents that told me that their offspring matured during their time under my guidance.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#180  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 12:39 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Scarlett wrote:Aggi, to be honest the person who's acting unreasonably here is you I'm afraid. You keep repeating your own, very personal issues with sport, and your own personal vision of it as a 'religion', sports fans MUST be fanatics (trubs has not come across as fanatical at all!). You're digging your heels in and it making you really unreasonable :nono:

This has just become ridiculous now. You win! Sport good: Aggie and her opinions bad. Happy now? Bad Mrs Aggie. :nono: :nono:


To be honest, some of your posts on this topic have been 'bad' and 'ridiculous'.


Thanks Scarlett, you've only repeated all the stuff I've been told all my life. It's hard to see the world the way I do, not for me but for other people. It's the reason that I stay away from people in the real world. Maybe I should actually just kill myself.


Little extreme, don't you think? Scarlett was talking about some of your posts, not you, I think suicide might be a bit of an overreaction.
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