Spectator Sports

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Re: Spectator Sports

#181  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 12:41 pm

babel wrote:I've been a practitioner of competitive volleyball for a little under 20 years and now I do sports once a week. That's barely enough to maintain a good physique, but it's primarily the mental stimulus it gives me that motivates me to get out of bed early for the weekly match.
I feel refreshed, mentally, afterwards. After the match, both teams typically have a drink together. We've played each other countless times and have become mates first, adversaries second.
During my competitive period, we never fought after a match, never had lasting heated discussions and when we went to check out the first team's matches, we noticed that there were only two cops taking care of trafic before and after the game and during the game, they came in and enjoyed the game as well. This in contrast to when a football match was scheduled. Cops on horses to contain the masses.

On the 'building character' stuff: I have been a trainer for 14-16 old year olds. It was a joy to work with most of them. You can't magically transform shitty characters in perfect human beings or anything close to it. But I have received quite a few compliments from parents that told me that their offspring matured during their time under my guidance.


This matches my experiences and those of people I know. Sport can give us an awful lot. Yes, it has low moments but we still get a massive net gain in my opinion.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#182  Postby Scarlett » Jan 10, 2014 12:44 pm

babel wrote:I've been a practitioner of competitive volleyball for a little under 20 years and now I do sports once a week. That's barely enough to maintain a good physique, but it's primarily the mental stimulus it gives me that motivates me to get out of bed early for the weekly match.
I feel refreshed, mentally, afterwards. After the match, both teams typically have a drink together. We've played each other countless times and have become mates first, adversaries second.
During my competitive period, we never fought after a match, never had lasting heated discussions and when we went to check out the first team's matches, we noticed that there were only two cops taking care of trafic before and after the game and during the game, they came in and enjoyed the game as well. This in contrast to when a football match was scheduled. Cops on horses to contain the masses.

On the 'building character' stuff: I have been a trainer for 14-16 old year olds. It was a joy to work with most of them. You can't magically transform shitty characters in perfect human beings or anything close to it. But I have received quite a few compliments from parents that told me that their offspring matured during their time under my guidance.


:this:

My husband played rugby from a pretty young age. While some of his peers were dying from drug overdoses (he was from a pretty shitty town), he was out there dedicating himself to the sport he loved.

His natural competitiveness is also what's given us the lovely life we have :)
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Re: Spectator Sports

#183  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 12:50 pm

Scarlett wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Scarlett wrote:Aggi, to be honest the person who's acting unreasonably here is you I'm afraid. You keep repeating your own, very personal issues with sport, and your own personal vision of it as a 'religion', sports fans MUST be fanatics (trubs has not come across as fanatical at all!). You're digging your heels in and it making you really unreasonable :nono:

This has just become ridiculous now. You win! Sport good: Aggie and her opinions bad. Happy now? Bad Mrs Aggie. :nono: :nono:


To be honest, some of your posts on this topic have been 'bad' and 'ridiculous'.


Thanks Scarlett, you've only repeated all the stuff I've been told all my life. It's hard to see the world the way I do, not for me but for other people. It's the reason that I stay away from people in the real world. Maybe I should actually just kill myself.


Oh fgs Aggi, you're perfectly free to see the world however you choose.

I don't choose it Scarlett, it's the way I see the world.

The problem comes when you get defensive and insist on other people seeing the world the way you see it. People may disagree with you from time to time, it's not a personal slight.

But that's the whole point Scarlett. I do take it personally. I can't help it. I don't insist that people see the world the way I do because I know my point of view is quirky. In the real world, I get away with it by staying away from people, unless I absolutely have to be around them, and then I pretend, and I find that stressful, so I take breaks from the real world to recover from the stress. On the internet, and especially on forums where personal attacks are strictly forbidden, I find it easier to state my point of view. What I don't expect is people shouting at me the way they always have in the real world. I DO see the world differently. I find it extremely difficult to see other people's point of view. I know it comes across as rude, but it's not meant that way, I just can't see it. All I wanted to do was express my dislike of sport. What I didn't expect was being attacked for being ridiculous and unable to see the health benefits of it etc etc etc., when all I wanted was to express that I can't see those benefits, because I actually can't see them. I hear them, I know them, but I don't see them. I don't see how you're healthier if you play tennis, rather than run around in your garden and climb trees in your own yard, on your own, without other people yelling at you because you can't hit a ball.

I would have thought someone who holds such strong, firm opinions should be more open to debating them.

Look, I can see that there are health benefits to playing games, and getting exercise. I'm not stupid, just odd. What I can't see is the health benefit from watching it all weekend on TV.

And nothing I said deserved the emotional trip you just gave me. Low blow.

Metaphorically, Scarlett, metaphorically. Since I've been getting therapy I've learnt how to deal with conflict, by avoiding it if possible, or by being honest and saying what it is I feel. Like I explained about my abhorrence of certain textures, and the physical reaction to extreme temperatures, and sweat, fruit juice on my hands etc. My therapist has said that if I explained this, people would be sympathetic. Except he's wrong. People aren't sympathetic. They tell me that I should "just learn to get over it" or "you're odd" or even worse "mentally ill." So it hurts, and I get a little down, but then I get out of it again because I'm over the depression that led to me getting help.

I'm leaving you to it Aggi, it's not worth it :nono:

Sorry, I didn't mean to be hurtful. I really don't mean to be I just don't get the way people are able to fight and then walk away shaking hands. My inclination is to crawl into a hole when people are fighting and particularly when I perceive what they say to me as being mean. I try to avoid irritation and anger with humour, most of the time. But when I see what I think is unreasonableness, i.e. my personal taste, my personal preference, as being less valid than those of other people, I feel the same way. I want to run away and hide.

Why should my feelings about sport be invalid, just because they sound unreasonable to other people?

Why can't someone, somewhere, in the whole world, just not say to me: hell, I'm sorry you feel so strongly against it, it's a pity you can't get the appeal of sport, it's really very enjoyable, especially because you've already felt pleasure in dancing, and driving.

-----
I guess I'm a little fragile because my husband was desperately ill this week, and I had to face a few of my demons to save his life. Literally. And then I had to deal with the anger of someone who I thought was a good friend because she didn't want to take over the management of his illness, rather than allow me to deal with the demons, and the illness, in my own way. So, I know it's not an excuse but I need a little slack cutting. And I always will because I don't see the world the way other people do. And while I don't expect other people to see the world my way, I'd like them to just respect me as having a strange way of looking at the world, and leave me to it.
Last edited by Agrippina on Jan 10, 2014 1:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#184  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 1:00 pm

trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
Come on, man. You know better than that.

I don't follow. I think co-operation can have many benefits. I also think competition can have many benefits. Which do you disagree with?

Name some benefits of competitiveness for someone who doesn't get it please?

I can offer you some examples if you like. When NASA wanted to encourage private companies and individuals to design various items, it created a competition. I think everyone could see the value of competition there.
In a sporting setting, it encourages people to set ambitious targets and to put their full effort into achieving them. It gets people back on to the proverbial horse, it teaches people that they can push themselves to their limits and achieve incredible things that benefit them personally and their social group as a whole. More than that, life on Earth is dependent on the ability of competition to promote achievement and reward success. Human sports are not quite as brutal as nature though, we don't kill the losers.
If you don't like my examples, I'd bet google can offer a virtually endless list of how competition helps in any field imaginable.

It's not that I don't like them, I just don't understand why people have to compete. Why can't we all just share the pie?

See how quickly a building goes up with two construction teams competing versus the same numbers of guys on one construction team cooperating. There are real problems in the world besides kicking a ball between a couple of posts. The lessons learned on the latter don't apply particularly well to solving the former.


I agree that co-operation can lead to significant gains. I also think the same can be said of competition. Why is that a problem?

Again, name some benefits of co-operation for someone who prefers to do everything on their own.

You do everything on your own do you?

Yes, I do. At school in the first week, I used to get textbooks handed out to me, take them home and work all the way through them, immediately. I never participated in group activities because I can't work with other people. I do as much as possible on my own, because working with other people causes fights.

Well competition can help individuals too. For example, I sometimes play golf. When I do I sometimes compete against the course, which means I set myself a target and try to reach it. Sometimes I play two balls, playing A against B. Simple competitions like that can lead to significant gains, if not in performance, then in enjoyment. Why is this such a problem for you to grasp? I don't see why you are so personally involved in denouncing sport and all it achieves. I know you don't like sport but surely it's possible to dislike it and still recognise it has benefits for other people?

I mentioned that I fancied the idea of golf. Just because it's played against yourself really. But then you have to socialise with the people you play with and they cheat, or pick fights about where you placed the ball, and so on. I gave up after a couple of games. My best game was with my nephew who was a great golfer. We each played our own game, trying to beat our own distances, and I enjoyed that. It's when other people got involved that I had to stop playing.

I like walking. I walk at least 2 kilometres a day, with my dog, now but otherwise my DH and I go for long walks together, and we enjoy that. I do get the health benefits of exercise, to a degree. It's the hysteria around sport and the fanatical worship of it that I don't get. But as I explained above, that's my way of looking at the world.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#185  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 1:20 pm

Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
I don't follow. I think co-operation can have many benefits. I also think competition can have many benefits. Which do you disagree with?

Name some benefits of competitiveness for someone who doesn't get it please?

I can offer you some examples if you like. When NASA wanted to encourage private companies and individuals to design various items, it created a competition. I think everyone could see the value of competition there.
In a sporting setting, it encourages people to set ambitious targets and to put their full effort into achieving them. It gets people back on to the proverbial horse, it teaches people that they can push themselves to their limits and achieve incredible things that benefit them personally and their social group as a whole. More than that, life on Earth is dependent on the ability of competition to promote achievement and reward success. Human sports are not quite as brutal as nature though, we don't kill the losers.
If you don't like my examples, I'd bet google can offer a virtually endless list of how competition helps in any field imaginable.

It's not that I don't like them, I just don't understand why people have to compete. Why can't we all just share the pie?

Well, I'm no anthropologist but humans seem to be pretty competitive by nature to me, as well as most of the rest of the animals too. Maybe there is a species somewhere that can co-operate for everything and still get all the same benefits but on our planet we compete for any number of reasons, the main one being that it works. The better at competing your are, the more you get what you want.



I agree that co-operation can lead to significant gains. I also think the same can be said of competition. Why is that a problem?

Again, name some benefits of co-operation for someone who prefers to do everything on their own.

You do everything on your own do you?

Yes, I do. At school in the first week, I used to get textbooks handed out to me, take them home and work all the way through them, immediately. I never participated in group activities because I can't work with other people. I do as much as possible on my own, because working with other people causes fights.

Well, my point really is that you don't actually do everything on your own, for a start you live in a social group, as you have already told us. All of us are social animals, except the few extremes, to a varying extent. I don't know whether a world devoid of competition would be a good place or a bad place but I do know that on this world competition can bring out the best and the worst in people. I think the net gain is overwhelmingly positive though, my own experience of sport and competition is positive despite me devoting only a small amount of my time and energy to it.

Well competition can help individuals too. For example, I sometimes play golf. When I do I sometimes compete against the course, which means I set myself a target and try to reach it. Sometimes I play two balls, playing A against B. Simple competitions like that can lead to significant gains, if not in performance, then in enjoyment. Why is this such a problem for you to grasp? I don't see why you are so personally involved in denouncing sport and all it achieves. I know you don't like sport but surely it's possible to dislike it and still recognise it has benefits for other people?

I mentioned that I fancied the idea of golf. Just because it's played against yourself really. But then you have to socialise with the people you play with and they cheat, or pick fights about where you placed the ball, and so on. I gave up after a couple of games. My best game was with my nephew who was a great golfer. We each played our own game, trying to beat our own distances, and I enjoyed that. It's when other people got involved that I had to stop playing.

You don't have to socialise at all, you can play golf on your own. Many people choose to socialise because people generally enjoy socialising but it is not compulsory at all.

I like walking. I walk at least 2 kilometres a day, with my dog, now but otherwise my DH and I go for long walks together, and we enjoy that. I do get the health benefits of exercise, to a degree. It's the hysteria around sport and the fanatical worship of it that I don't get. But as I explained above, that's my way of looking at the world.


Well, I agree that sometimes sports lovers can go over the top but that is actually a miniscule percentage of all sports. We have bigger problems in this world than people that enjoy sport too much, that fanaticism (which does exist, though not in me, for the record) is a symptom of too much passion and joy, it's hardly worth condemning too much, is it?
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Re: Spectator Sports

#186  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 1:29 pm

trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
Name some benefits of competitiveness for someone who doesn't get it please?

I can offer you some examples if you like. When NASA wanted to encourage private companies and individuals to design various items, it created a competition. I think everyone could see the value of competition there.
In a sporting setting, it encourages people to set ambitious targets and to put their full effort into achieving them. It gets people back on to the proverbial horse, it teaches people that they can push themselves to their limits and achieve incredible things that benefit them personally and their social group as a whole. More than that, life on Earth is dependent on the ability of competition to promote achievement and reward success. Human sports are not quite as brutal as nature though, we don't kill the losers.
If you don't like my examples, I'd bet google can offer a virtually endless list of how competition helps in any field imaginable.

It's not that I don't like them, I just don't understand why people have to compete. Why can't we all just share the pie?

Well, I'm no anthropologist but humans seem to be pretty competitive by nature to me, as well as most of the rest of the animals too. Maybe there is a species somewhere that can co-operate for everything and still get all the same benefits but on our planet we compete for any number of reasons, the main one being that it works. The better at competing your are, the more you get what you want.

Maybe that's why I don't get what I want. I just walk away from conflict mostly, :grin: , unless I'm feeling vulnerable, then I get angry and mean.


Again, name some benefits of co-operation for someone who prefers to do everything on their own.

You do everything on your own do you?

Yes, I do. At school in the first week, I used to get textbooks handed out to me, take them home and work all the way through them, immediately. I never participated in group activities because I can't work with other people. I do as much as possible on my own, because working with other people causes fights.

Well, my point really is that you don't actually do everything on your own, for a start you live in a social group, as you have already told us. All of us are social animals, except the few extremes, to a varying extent. I don't know whether a world devoid of competition would be a good place or a bad place but I do know that on this world competition can bring out the best and the worst in people. I think the net gain is overwhelmingly positive though, my own experience of sport and competition is positive despite me devoting only a small amount of my time and energy to it.

I don't know. I can't be bothered to compete. If I'm not chosen, I just shrug and say, "whatever."

I know I live in a social group, but I'm not terribly good at it. Mostly they do their stuff and I do mine. I don't join in many group activities happily.

Well competition can help individuals too. For example, I sometimes play golf. When I do I sometimes compete against the course, which means I set myself a target and try to reach it. Sometimes I play two balls, playing A against B. Simple competitions like that can lead to significant gains, if not in performance, then in enjoyment. Why is this such a problem for you to grasp? I don't see why you are so personally involved in denouncing sport and all it achieves. I know you don't like sport but surely it's possible to dislike it and still recognise it has benefits for other people?

I mentioned that I fancied the idea of golf. Just because it's played against yourself really. But then you have to socialise with the people you play with and they cheat, or pick fights about where you placed the ball, and so on. I gave up after a couple of games. My best game was with my nephew who was a great golfer. We each played our own game, trying to beat our own distances, and I enjoyed that. It's when other people got involved that I had to stop playing.

You don't have to socialise at all, you can play golf on your own. Many people choose to socialise because people generally enjoy socialising but it is not compulsory at all.

Not on our courses, they want at least two people, or so I was told when I tried to do that.

I like walking. I walk at least 2 kilometres a day, with my dog, now but otherwise my DH and I go for long walks together, and we enjoy that. I do get the health benefits of exercise, to a degree. It's the hysteria around sport and the fanatical worship of it that I don't get. But as I explained above, that's my way of looking at the world.


Well, I agree that sometimes sports lovers can go over the top but that is actually a miniscule percentage of all sports. We have bigger problems in this world than people that enjoy sport too much, that fanaticism (which does exist, though not in me, for the record) is a symptom of too much passion and joy, it's hardly worth condemning too much, is it?

I suppose.
I've successfully avoided it mostly, for most of my adult life, I guess I can continue doing that as trying to stop it invading my home is a battle I'm not going to win.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#187  Postby trubble76 » Jan 10, 2014 1:38 pm

Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
trubble76 wrote:
I can offer you some examples if you like. When NASA wanted to encourage private companies and individuals to design various items, it created a competition. I think everyone could see the value of competition there.
In a sporting setting, it encourages people to set ambitious targets and to put their full effort into achieving them. It gets people back on to the proverbial horse, it teaches people that they can push themselves to their limits and achieve incredible things that benefit them personally and their social group as a whole. More than that, life on Earth is dependent on the ability of competition to promote achievement and reward success. Human sports are not quite as brutal as nature though, we don't kill the losers.
If you don't like my examples, I'd bet google can offer a virtually endless list of how competition helps in any field imaginable.

It's not that I don't like them, I just don't understand why people have to compete. Why can't we all just share the pie?

Well, I'm no anthropologist but humans seem to be pretty competitive by nature to me, as well as most of the rest of the animals too. Maybe there is a species somewhere that can co-operate for everything and still get all the same benefits but on our planet we compete for any number of reasons, the main one being that it works. The better at competing your are, the more you get what you want.

Maybe that's why I don't get what I want. I just walk away from conflict mostly, :grin: , unless I'm feeling vulnerable, then I get angry and mean.

I humbly suggest that friendly competition is likely to be more productive.


You do everything on your own do you?

Yes, I do. At school in the first week, I used to get textbooks handed out to me, take them home and work all the way through them, immediately. I never participated in group activities because I can't work with other people. I do as much as possible on my own, because working with other people causes fights.

Well, my point really is that you don't actually do everything on your own, for a start you live in a social group, as you have already told us. All of us are social animals, except the few extremes, to a varying extent. I don't know whether a world devoid of competition would be a good place or a bad place but I do know that on this world competition can bring out the best and the worst in people. I think the net gain is overwhelmingly positive though, my own experience of sport and competition is positive despite me devoting only a small amount of my time and energy to it.

I don't know. I can't be bothered to compete. If I'm not chosen, I just shrug and say, "whatever."

I know I live in a social group, but I'm not terribly good at it. Mostly they do their stuff and I do mine. I don't join in many group activities happily.

Okay, you fall towards one end of the spectrum, for most humans sports are really helpful in terms of fitness and health and in terms of relationships too. Learning to get along with different people is a really useful skill. For most of us, life is a team sport, so to speak.

Well competition can help individuals too. For example, I sometimes play golf. When I do I sometimes compete against the course, which means I set myself a target and try to reach it. Sometimes I play two balls, playing A against B. Simple competitions like that can lead to significant gains, if not in performance, then in enjoyment. Why is this such a problem for you to grasp? I don't see why you are so personally involved in denouncing sport and all it achieves. I know you don't like sport but surely it's possible to dislike it and still recognise it has benefits for other people?

I mentioned that I fancied the idea of golf. Just because it's played against yourself really. But then you have to socialise with the people you play with and they cheat, or pick fights about where you placed the ball, and so on. I gave up after a couple of games. My best game was with my nephew who was a great golfer. We each played our own game, trying to beat our own distances, and I enjoyed that. It's when other people got involved that I had to stop playing.

You don't have to socialise at all, you can play golf on your own. Many people choose to socialise because people generally enjoy socialising but it is not compulsory at all.

Not on our courses, they want at least two people, or so I was told when I tried to do that.

Weird, I have never come across that rule before and I've played on a lot of different courses, and in different countries too, although not in RSA.

I like walking. I walk at least 2 kilometres a day, with my dog, now but otherwise my DH and I go for long walks together, and we enjoy that. I do get the health benefits of exercise, to a degree. It's the hysteria around sport and the fanatical worship of it that I don't get. But as I explained above, that's my way of looking at the world.


Well, I agree that sometimes sports lovers can go over the top but that is actually a miniscule percentage of all sports. We have bigger problems in this world than people that enjoy sport too much, that fanaticism (which does exist, though not in me, for the record) is a symptom of too much passion and joy, it's hardly worth condemning too much, is it?

I suppose.
I've successfully avoided it mostly, for most of my adult life, I guess I can continue doing that as trying to stop it invading my home is a battle I'm not going to win.

Yes, you and your home were not the objects of my discussion, I only want to argue that despite the occasional downside, sport is very beneficial to most people, and to the societies in which they live. I know many people that do not enjoy sports, they are welcome to continue not enjoying anything they like. I hope that they can see why so many people around they world find sports so worthy of their time and energy though.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#188  Postby mattthomas » Jan 10, 2014 1:41 pm

Scarlett wrote:While some of his peers were dying from drug overdoses (he was from a pretty shitty town)

Watch what you're saying missy ;)
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Re: Spectator Sports

#189  Postby babel » Jan 10, 2014 1:47 pm

Agrippina wrote:
It's not that I don't like them, I just don't understand why people have to compete. Why can't we all just share the pie?

I snipped the rest of your comments because I feel like this is the main difference between what I've seen of your position on sports and myself. Bear with me.

Competing is in most sports an integral part of the whole activity. I don't deny that. But you're not always competing against each other. Sometimes you're training to solve a handicap in your own game. Snooker players are an example who can train for hours on end to get that one shot just right.
I know I sometimes trained a bit longer than the rest to up my game just a little more. The thrill of FINALLY being able to do something you hadn't been able to do before is hard to put into words.

Even if you're competing against each other it only improves the sensation if both of the teams are competing all out fair and square and it's a fantastic match. In the end, we ended up in the bar talking about how the match didn't deserve a loser and how we enjoyed the match.
Because that's what recreational sports are: thrill, fun, relaxation.

I can feel the same thing if I can solve a puzzle or finally understand a concept described in a book I'm reading. Sometimes in the middle of the night after which sleep is hard to come by.
Different thrills, but maybe those are easier for you to feel familiar with?

Sorry if that didn't make any sense. :oops:
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Re: Spectator Sports

#190  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 1:54 pm

trubble76 wrote:<snipped because I mostly agree/>
Okay, you fall towards one end of the spectrum, for most humans sports are really helpful in terms of fitness and health and in terms of relationships too. Learning to get along with different people is a really useful skill. For most of us, life is a team sport, so to speak.

I've had to do it, obviously so that I could live in the outside world, besides being labelled as having a disorder, when I was child, was a sentence into a "mental home." My family didn't think there was anything wrong, just that I was "weird" and "selfish."

I had to be taught to do the stuff other people do naturally: make eye contact, shut up and let other people speak, know when it's my turn to speak, go for job interviews, and socialise with people at work. Life was and isn't a team sport for me.


I mentioned that I fancied the idea of golf. Just because it's played against yourself really. But then you have to socialise with the people you play with and they cheat, or pick fights about where you placed the ball, and so on. I gave up after a couple of games. My best game was with my nephew who was a great golfer. We each played our own game, trying to beat our own distances, and I enjoyed that. It's when other people got involved that I had to stop playing.

You don't have to socialise at all, you can play golf on your own. Many people choose to socialise because people generally enjoy socialising but it is not compulsory at all.

Not on our courses, they want at least two people, or so I was told when I tried to do that.

Weird, I have never come across that rule before and I've played on a lot of different courses, and in different countries too, although not in RSA.

I don't go back and ask a second time when I'm refused. I asked, they said no, so I gave up. I guess it wasn't that important or I'd have talked and talked until they let me in.

I like walking. I walk at least 2 kilometres a day, with my dog, now but otherwise my DH and I go for long walks together, and we enjoy that. I do get the health benefits of exercise, to a degree. It's the hysteria around sport and the fanatical worship of it that I don't get. But as I explained above, that's my way of looking at the world.


Well, I agree that sometimes sports lovers can go over the top but that is actually a miniscule percentage of all sports. We have bigger problems in this world than people that enjoy sport too much, that fanaticism (which does exist, though not in me, for the record) is a symptom of too much passion and joy, it's hardly worth condemning too much, is it?

I suppose.
I've successfully avoided it mostly, for most of my adult life, I guess I can continue doing that as trying to stop it invading my home is a battle I'm not going to win.

Yes, you and your home were not the objects of my discussion, I only want to argue that despite the occasional downside, sport is very beneficial to most people, and to the societies in which they live. I know many people that do not enjoy sports, they are welcome to continue not enjoying anything they like. I hope that they can see why so many people around they world find sports so worthy of their time and energy though.

I suppose some people who don't like sport can do that. I just don't get why people get so emotional about what seems to me to be a repetition of the same game every time. But that's my opinion, not valid for everyone else.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#191  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 2:04 pm

babel wrote:
Agrippina wrote:
It's not that I don't like them, I just don't understand why people have to compete. Why can't we all just share the pie?

I snipped the rest of your comments because I feel like this is the main difference between what I've seen of your position on sports and myself. Bear with me.

Competing is in most sports an integral part of the whole activity. I don't deny that. But you're not always competing against each other. Sometimes you're training to solve a handicap in your own game. Snooker players are an example who can train for hours on end to get that one shot just right.
I know I sometimes trained a bit longer than the rest to up my game just a little more. The thrill of FINALLY being able to do something you hadn't been able to do before is hard to put into words.

OK I get that.
Like when I want to make my computer do something from the other side of the room, and it isn't working, and I haven't set the settings correctly, then it works and it's like WOW!

:thumbup:

Even if you're competing against each other it only improves the sensation if both of the teams are competing all out fair and square and it's a fantastic match. In the end, we ended up in the bar talking about how the match didn't deserve a loser and how we enjoyed the match.
Because that's what recreational sports are: thrill, fun, relaxation.


I wish it sounded like that to me. When I have to sit through a party at the bowling club and all they do is post mortems on the game, I yawn, because it's boring. But you've explained it. I suppose if they're a bowling club, and their game is important to them, they're not interesting to hear my tirade about the latest stupidity of a politician. I'm seeing what you're saying. Thank you.

I can feel the same thing if I can solve a puzzle or finally understand a concept described in a book I'm reading. Sometimes in the middle of the night after which sleep is hard to come by.
Different thrills, but maybe those are easier for you to feel familiar with?

Sorry if that didn't make any sense. :oops:

No it made complete sense. Last week I upgraded my Mac to the new OS that has the book collection in a separate application now. It works perfectly with the phones running the latest iOS but not with the iPads that aren't. So my DH's books disappeared off his iPad, and I was tired so I told him to read something else, I'd look it up the next day. Except I couldn't do that. I obsessed about it for ages until I got up and turned everything back on again and then figured it out. Then I could sleep. So yes, I get that.

I promise I'll try to be less selfish about sport. Is it called being a good sport if you allow that there is something you're missing about it?
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Re: Spectator Sports

#192  Postby babel » Jan 10, 2014 2:12 pm

A little confession: when we were going on and on and on and on about who fun the game was, our partners tended to group together somewhere else to talk about something else because we would bore them to death as well.
We assumed at first that was to not disrupt our very important talk about how much fun we'd had playing, but it was probably to let us know: 'stop blabbering about what you just did and give US some attention now'. :lol:
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Re: Spectator Sports

#193  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 2:28 pm

babel wrote:A little confession: when we were going on and on and on and on about who fun the game was, our partners tended to group together somewhere else to talk about something else because we would bore them to death as well.
We assumed at first that was to not disrupt our very important talk about how much fun we'd had playing, but it was probably to let us know: 'stop blabbering about what you just did and give US some attention now'. :lol:


:grin: Don't the out group always do that? I've met a few wives at bowls who don't get the in group's pleasure at winning all the ends? :dunno: They mutter about wanting to talk about something other than bowls, I just yawn in my corner while I play on my phone. :grin:
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Re: Spectator Sports

#194  Postby The_Metatron » Jan 10, 2014 2:43 pm

Banzai! wrote:
Come on, man. You know better than that.

See how quickly a building goes up with two construction teams competing versus the same numbers of guys on one construction team cooperating. There are real problems in the world besides kicking a ball between a couple of posts. The lessons learned on the latter don't apply particularly well to solving the former.

what a lot of rubbish, there are 10 other players on your football team and all of you are supposed to be working together to get the ball in the goal and as well as keeping the ball out of your own goal. I work in an office now I am a grown up and all of us are (supposed to be) working together to bring in fees and keep the salaries paid, there are obvious parallels.

Why do businesses do "team building" away days, presumably to try to foster the same sort of team environment that exists on a saturday afternoon on village greens across the country.

Rubbish, eh?

There are ten other people on the other football team that are not helping your ten people score a goal. In fact, they are actively opposing it. As if scoring a goal is some sort of desirable or useful thing to do. Is there another team of accountants trying to stop you from collecting those fees and paying those salaries? Is there another team that might collect or pay them first?

Not buying it. I am perfectly capable of gonig through life without resorting to sports metaphor to figure out to solve problems. There are better ways to do it. I don't need to crush, outrun, defend, outscore, or defeat anyone. Combat is no way to solve problems, even if it is ritual combat.

You want to learn how to solve problems and organize teams to achieve a common, difficult goal? Study the work of the likes of Gen Kranz, or perhaps Chris Craft. No sports coach comes close. Not even close.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#195  Postby babel » Jan 10, 2014 2:54 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
Banzai! wrote:
Come on, man. You know better than that.

See how quickly a building goes up with two construction teams competing versus the same numbers of guys on one construction team cooperating. There are real problems in the world besides kicking a ball between a couple of posts. The lessons learned on the latter don't apply particularly well to solving the former.

what a lot of rubbish, there are 10 other players on your football team and all of you are supposed to be working together to get the ball in the goal and as well as keeping the ball out of your own goal. I work in an office now I am a grown up and all of us are (supposed to be) working together to bring in fees and keep the salaries paid, there are obvious parallels.

Why do businesses do "team building" away days, presumably to try to foster the same sort of team environment that exists on a saturday afternoon on village greens across the country.

Rubbish, eh?

There are ten other people on the other football team that are not helping your ten people score a goal. In fact, they are actively opposing it. As if scoring a goal is some sort of desirable or useful thing to do. Is there another team of accountants trying to stop you from collecting those fees and paying those salaries? Is there another team that might collect or pay them first?

Not buying it. I am perfectly capable of gonig through life without resorting to sports metaphor to figure out to solve problems. There are better ways to do it. I don't need to crush, outrun, defend, outscore, or defeat anyone. Combat is no way to solve problems, even if it is ritual combat.

You want to learn how to solve problems and organize teams to achieve a common, difficult goal? Study the work of the likes of Gen Krantz, or perhaps Chris Craft. No sports coach comes close. Not even close.
Although playing sports isn't a miracle recipe to create demi-gods, is has the benefit of allowing people to experience working together, communicating with peers, handle conflicts or disappointment from a young age. That, along with reading about it surely is a better base to handle similar situations in later life than with only reading about it?

And you're wrong about there being no accountants trying to stop you from collecting those fees in time. I assure you. :lol:
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Re: Spectator Sports

#196  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 3:22 pm

Actually to be fair. I have to comment about Invictus and how that first rugby world cup in 1995 caused our country to unite and get over their differences. So there's a positive outcome from sport. :thumbup:
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Re: Spectator Sports

#197  Postby Scarlett » Jan 10, 2014 3:32 pm

Invictus is one of my favourite movies! I cried buckets! Such a fabulous story!
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Re: Spectator Sports

#198  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 3:35 pm

Scarlett wrote:Invictus is one of my favourite movies! I cried buckets! Such a fabulous story!


There must be something about it because I've seen it several times. Even my most anti-sport son enjoyed watching it with me. I think it's more about Mandela than the rugby for me. :thumbup: We went to the museum in December, there were some pics from the match there.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#199  Postby The_Metatron » Jan 10, 2014 3:59 pm

babel wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
Banzai! wrote:
Come on, man. You know better than that.

See how quickly a building goes up with two construction teams competing versus the same numbers of guys on one construction team cooperating. There are real problems in the world besides kicking a ball between a couple of posts. The lessons learned on the latter don't apply particularly well to solving the former.

what a lot of rubbish, there are 10 other players on your football team and all of you are supposed to be working together to get the ball in the goal and as well as keeping the ball out of your own goal. I work in an office now I am a grown up and all of us are (supposed to be) working together to bring in fees and keep the salaries paid, there are obvious parallels.

Why do businesses do "team building" away days, presumably to try to foster the same sort of team environment that exists on a saturday afternoon on village greens across the country.

Rubbish, eh?

There are ten other people on the other football team that are not helping your ten people score a goal. In fact, they are actively opposing it. As if scoring a goal is some sort of desirable or useful thing to do. Is there another team of accountants trying to stop you from collecting those fees and paying those salaries? Is there another team that might collect or pay them first?

Not buying it. I am perfectly capable of gonig through life without resorting to sports metaphor to figure out to solve problems. There are better ways to do it. I don't need to crush, outrun, defend, outscore, or defeat anyone. Combat is no way to solve problems, even if it is ritual combat.

You want to learn how to solve problems and organize teams to achieve a common, difficult goal? Study the work of the likes of Gen Krantz, or perhaps Chris Craft. No sports coach comes close. Not even close.
Although playing sports isn't a miracle recipe to create demi-gods, is has the benefit of allowing people to experience working together, communicating with peers, handle conflicts or disappointment from a young age. That, along with reading about it surely is a better base to handle similar situations in later life than with only reading about it?

And you're wrong about there being no accountants trying to stop you from collecting those fees in time. I assure you. :lol:

No, I don't think so. It's how they are taught to work together that I find inadequate. I mentioned Gene Kranz.

After the fire in Apollo 1, Gene Kranz delivered this dictum to his mission control team:

Spaceflight will never tolerate carelessness, incapacity, and neglect. Somewhere, somehow, we screwed up. It could have been in design, build, or test. Whatever it was, we should have caught it. We were too gung ho about the schedule and we locked out all of the problems we saw each day in our work. Every element of the program was in trouble and so were we. The simulators were not working, Mission Control was behind in virtually every area, and the flight and test procedures changed daily. Nothing we did had any shelf life. Not one of us stood up and said, 'Dammit, stop!' I don't know what Thompson's committee will find as the cause, but I know what I find. We are the cause! We were not ready! We did not do our job. We were rolling the dice, hoping that things would come together by launch day, when in our hearts we knew it would take a miracle. We were pushing the schedule and betting that the Cape would slip before we did. From this day forward, Flight Control will be known by two words: 'Tough' and 'Competent.' Tough means we are forever accountable for what we do or what we fail to do. We will never again compromise our responsibilities. Every time we walk into Mission Control we will know what we stand for. Competent means we will never take anything for granted. We will never be found short in our knowledge and in our skills. Mission Control will be perfect. When you leave this meeting today you will go to your office and the first thing you will do there is to write 'Tough and Competent' on your blackboards. It will never be erased. Each day when you enter the room these words will remind you of the price paid by Grissom, White, and Chaffee. These words are the price of admission to the ranks of Mission Control.


Not a single sports metaphor. Not one. Does the later performance of Apollo mission control need any discussion? In the face of that sort of leadership, teamwork, and problem solving, sports is worse than useless.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#200  Postby Banzai! » Jan 10, 2014 4:14 pm

One well written paragraph to dismiss the whole experience of sport?

And he does use a gambling metaphor and some might consider things like poker a form of sport ;)
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