Spectator Sports

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Re: Spectator Sports

#201  Postby babel » Jan 10, 2014 4:22 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
babel wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
Banzai! wrote:
what a lot of rubbish, there are 10 other players on your football team and all of you are supposed to be working together to get the ball in the goal and as well as keeping the ball out of your own goal. I work in an office now I am a grown up and all of us are (supposed to be) working together to bring in fees and keep the salaries paid, there are obvious parallels.

Why do businesses do "team building" away days, presumably to try to foster the same sort of team environment that exists on a saturday afternoon on village greens across the country.

Rubbish, eh?

There are ten other people on the other football team that are not helping your ten people score a goal. In fact, they are actively opposing it. As if scoring a goal is some sort of desirable or useful thing to do. Is there another team of accountants trying to stop you from collecting those fees and paying those salaries? Is there another team that might collect or pay them first?

Not buying it. I am perfectly capable of gonig through life without resorting to sports metaphor to figure out to solve problems. There are better ways to do it. I don't need to crush, outrun, defend, outscore, or defeat anyone. Combat is no way to solve problems, even if it is ritual combat.

You want to learn how to solve problems and organize teams to achieve a common, difficult goal? Study the work of the likes of Gen Krantz, or perhaps Chris Craft. No sports coach comes close. Not even close.
Although playing sports isn't a miracle recipe to create demi-gods, is has the benefit of allowing people to experience working together, communicating with peers, handle conflicts or disappointment from a young age. That, along with reading about it surely is a better base to handle similar situations in later life than with only reading about it?

And you're wrong about there being no accountants trying to stop you from collecting those fees in time. I assure you. :lol:

No, I don't think so. It's how they are taught to work together that I find inadequate. I mentioned Gene Kranz.

After the fire in Apollo 1, Gene Kranz delivered this dictum to his mission control team:

Spaceflight will never tolerate carelessness, incapacity, and neglect. Somewhere, somehow, we screwed up. It could have been in design, build, or test. Whatever it was, we should have caught it. We were too gung ho about the schedule and we locked out all of the problems we saw each day in our work. Every element of the program was in trouble and so were we. The simulators were not working, Mission Control was behind in virtually every area, and the flight and test procedures changed daily. Nothing we did had any shelf life. Not one of us stood up and said, 'Dammit, stop!' I don't know what Thompson's committee will find as the cause, but I know what I find. We are the cause! We were not ready! We did not do our job. We were rolling the dice, hoping that things would come together by launch day, when in our hearts we knew it would take a miracle. We were pushing the schedule and betting that the Cape would slip before we did. From this day forward, Flight Control will be known by two words: 'Tough' and 'Competent.' Tough means we are forever accountable for what we do or what we fail to do. We will never again compromise our responsibilities. Every time we walk into Mission Control we will know what we stand for. Competent means we will never take anything for granted. We will never be found short in our knowledge and in our skills. Mission Control will be perfect. When you leave this meeting today you will go to your office and the first thing you will do there is to write 'Tough and Competent' on your blackboards. It will never be erased. Each day when you enter the room these words will remind you of the price paid by Grissom, White, and Chaffee. These words are the price of admission to the ranks of Mission Control.


Not a single sports metaphor. Not one. Does the later performance of Apollo mission control need any discussion? In the face of that sort of leadership, teamwork, and problem solving, sports is worse than useless.

Your response doesn't negate what I wrote though.
I never said that reading up on working together, solving issues etc is not useful or can be fully substituted by doing sports. Experiencing in real life what it means to work together, by operating in a team is an invaluable addition to the academic understanding of cooperation, interpersonal relationship management and issue handling you can gain from reading about it.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#202  Postby Supporting Caste » Jan 10, 2014 4:48 pm

I wonder if some of this pro-sport/anti-sport thing comes down to a matter of what one is good at, or what one finds comes easier to him or her.

Hell I'd much rather match up with anyone here in free-throw shooting than a spelling contest.

Now I say this with some trepidation because of the amount or respect I have for the two elders posting contrarian views here, but how much of this debate is rooted in predominantly personal experiences (positive or negative)?

If you've had generally positive experiences with something, it's much easier to overlook the negatives.

I've always hated tennis b/c I am so terrible at it, and thought of it as a sport of the privileged (much like golf, which I have major issues with for a slew of other reasons). But both are amazing games that take tremendous skill and practice, and I respect the work some put in to excel at something they love.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#203  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 10, 2014 5:16 pm

Your spelling seems just fine, bro.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#204  Postby Agrippina » Jan 10, 2014 5:36 pm

Supporting Caste wrote:I wonder if some of this pro-sport/anti-sport thing comes down to a matter of what one is good at, or what one finds comes easier to him or her.

Hell I'd much rather match up with anyone here in free-throw shooting than a spelling contest.

Now I say this with some trepidation because of the amount or respect I have for the two elders posting contrarian views here, but how much of this debate is rooted in predominantly personal experiences (positive or negative)?

If you've had generally positive experiences with something, it's much easier to overlook the negatives.

I've always hated tennis b/c I am so terrible at it, and thought of it as a sport of the privileged (much like golf, which I have major issues with for a slew of other reasons). But both are amazing games that take tremendous skill and practice, and I respect the work some put in to excel at something they love.


I agree, your spelling is just fine.

I'm really terrible at most sports -- I don't have the coordination for them, although I did learn to play golf and even had a chipping and putting green in my garden, but not with any great success. My DH is a natural. He's played tennis and football at provincial level and won a few trophies. He's also a fantastic bowler, plays at his club at the highest level, and is also a coach. None of my kids played sport, except for one who rowed. But he did it for fun, never to win. For my DH it was frustrating to watch him on the water, just rowing his scull without making any effort to win. Needless to say he didn't make it to the first eight, even though he was a capable rower. My older grandson seems to have good ball coordination, playing soccer at his play school. He's three.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#205  Postby Supporting Caste » Jan 10, 2014 5:57 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Your spelling seems just fine, bro.


Thank Zeus for computers ;)

And Tezcatlipoca for spellcheck!
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Re: Spectator Sports

#206  Postby Supporting Caste » Jan 10, 2014 6:14 pm

Supporting Caste wrote:
Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Your spelling seems just fine, bro.


Thank Zeus for computers ;)

And Tezcatlipoca for spellcheck!



Nope, was a guy named Ralph Gorin. Thank Gorin!
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Re: Spectator Sports

#207  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 10, 2014 6:15 pm

It's interesting the way some people who struggle with spelling and grammar learn to use those tools and you'd never know it was an issue for them while others never do.

To be honest, I am no athlete and had nothing but negative experiences with sports for most of my life. My parents desperately didn't want fat kids and so threw us in soccer and dance and put us on skis (though I took to snowboarding.) I began watching sports after I'd given up playing them. I got active again at the end of high school purely out of desperate need for an outlet. I found I was provoking people to instigate violence against me just so I could engage. That's when I started punching and kicking things, Muay Thai and BBJ. I took up rugby. I'm still not a good athlete. I have size and strength though and I'm smart so I can learn to be good at sports. None of it comes naturally though. I intimately understand that sick feeling associated with playing sports. It was frustrating and humiliating for a long time.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#208  Postby Blackadder » Jan 10, 2014 6:35 pm

I've played competitive sport all of my life (well from about the age of nine and I'm now in my fifties). I have met all kinds of people on the rugby and football pitch, on the golf course, the squash court or the cricket field. Some were psychopaths, some have become lifelong friends. I regard my sport experience has life-enhancing and a means of learning about how to deal with people. I also coach youngsters at football. They get fit, they learn discipline and they learn motor skills. There is nothing to compare to the thrill of watching an uncoordinated, unconfident 9 year old kid improve over a season and seeing the joy in his/her face as they master new physical skills.

Now that is just my anecdote. I don't expect it to be the same for others and I can accept that there are people who hate sport and don't see the point of it. However if someone tries to tell me that all sport is just a waste of time or deleterious or irrelevant to helping young people develop, I would take issue with that viewpoint because it is not my experience.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#209  Postby Onyx8 » Jan 10, 2014 7:24 pm

trubble76 wrote:
The_Metatron wrote:
trubble76 wrote:.... All I can say is, a world without sport (without ritual combat, as you put it) is definitely not preferable to one with no sports at all (no combat, as you you put it), even if your wishful thinking magically evaporated the apparent competitive nature of most humans.

You're nearly there.

I have found that in all cases cooperation is far more effective than competition to reach a common goal.


Got me there! I can't think of a single sport which encourages co-operation. Not one. Can anyone help me out?



Hacky-sack. :thumbup: :thumbup:
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Re: Spectator Sports

#210  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 10, 2014 7:39 pm

Back in my dirty hippie days myself and about a dozen friends set up a hacky-sack circle in front of Hermes on Rodeo Drive. We were told to leave eleven minutes later. We were just playing hacky-sack.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#211  Postby Supporting Caste » Jan 10, 2014 7:40 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Back in my dirty hippie days myself and about a dozen friends set up a hacky-sack circle in front of Hermes on Rodeo Drive. We were told to leave eleven minutes later. We were just playing hacky-sack.


UCLA alum?
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Re: Spectator Sports

#212  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 10, 2014 7:42 pm

No, but some of my mates who were playing hack with me did end up there.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#213  Postby Shagz » Jan 10, 2014 11:42 pm

Dudes, rugby is fucking insane. Lots of big guys slamming each other with no padding or helmets. Makes American football look tame in comparison.

Anyway, I just want to weigh in as someone who sucks at sports (too small and skinny), but still enjoys watching quite a bit.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#214  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 10, 2014 11:55 pm

I don't know how or why, but I acquired fewer injuries in rugby and in dance.
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Re: Spectator Sports

#215  Postby I'm With Stupid » Jan 11, 2014 7:21 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:I don't know how or why, but I acquired fewer injuries in rugby and in dance.

Well cheerleading is famously more dangerous than American football.

People are referring to sport as modern day ritual combat, but surely the origin of all sport is based on an instinct to play, which presumably exists in order to teach and fine-tune the skills required to survive? Obviously that would include combat as well as various other activities that would aid survival (archery would be an obvious example). The other issue is the one of competition. It is by no means the case that doing sport necessitates competition. I went climbing the other day and at no point was a score mentioned. The success was measured on an entirely personal level and everyone was very supportive of people trying to climb a route they hadn't previously managed. Obviously a lot of sports do include competition, but then so do most of pretty much any games. Does chess have nothing to offer because the players don't cooperate? If your child took up chess, would you consider it a waste of time, because it has no obvious practical application in the modern world? I suspect not.
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