The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

If not, what is it and is it very problematic?

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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#41  Postby Fallible » Apr 08, 2020 4:43 pm

Cheers for that, spear. I suppose it was something I heard a lot - ‘men hunted, women stayed in the cave’ - but was not aware of having seen much by way of evidence for. Probably because I had not made a point of looking. I suppose what niggles me about it is the unspoken bit that comes afterwards for a lot of the people who make the claim - ‘and so this is the way it should be’. Not that everyone who makes the claim thinks that, but it is used for justification of patriarchy.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#42  Postby felltoearth » Apr 08, 2020 4:55 pm

Spearthrower wrote:
Considering how even within recorded history, most human females were married young and turned into incessant baby-rearing machines, and given that our ancient ancestors lived shorter, tougher lives, I think it's safe to assume that in ancestral hominids and H sapiens until very recently (perhaps even still), women were the primary care-givers to infants and children, and consequently took part in safer activities.


Not to quibble (and I assume you meant other activities) but I wouldn’t include childbirth in the category of “safer” activities.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#43  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 08, 2020 5:25 pm

Fallible wrote:Cheers for that, spear. I suppose it was something I heard a lot - ‘men hunted, women stayed in the cave’ - but was not aware of having seen much by way of evidence for. Probably because I had not made a point of looking. I suppose what niggles me about it is the unspoken bit that comes afterwards for a lot of the people who make the claim - ‘and so this is the way it should be’. Not that everyone who makes the claim thinks that, but it is used for justification of patriarchy.



Oh it's worthy of challenging, and was notably done so in the 60's 70's by people like Germaine Greer and is a foundational discussion you'd have in undergraduate anthropology. If it turned out we were projecting modern sensibilities onto the past, wouldn't that be ironic? :)

But your other point there is something I am always insistent on pointing out - the appeal to nature. Just because our ancient ancestors may have had labour divided by gender, that doesn't infer it's right, or that we should. As if we're supposed to hold up the short, savage lives of Pleistocene and Neolithic peoples as the high-water mark of human society?!


ETA: mixed up the decades
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#44  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 08, 2020 5:26 pm

felltoearth wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
Considering how even within recorded history, most human females were married young and turned into incessant baby-rearing machines, and given that our ancient ancestors lived shorter, tougher lives, I think it's safe to assume that in ancestral hominids and H sapiens until very recently (perhaps even still), women were the primary care-givers to infants and children, and consequently took part in safer activities.


Not to quibble (and I assume you meant other activities) but I wouldn’t include childbirth in the category of “safer” activities.



Aye well, that's not a behavior that entails any sociocultural division of labour! ;)
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#45  Postby laklak » Apr 09, 2020 4:18 pm

Swazis are very patriarchal. Polygamy is very common, and it is not at all unusual to see the men sitting about under a tree drinking while the women do all the work.

Despite her love for all things Swazi, Mrs. Lak has not embraced ether polygamy or doing all the work while I lie about drinking beer in the shade.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#46  Postby Ironclad » Apr 09, 2020 5:23 pm

^Plenty of bears around your parts, I guess. :D

I would imagine, but have not checked for evidence, that early societies which embraced female hunters would have either failed and collapsed or changed the plan promptly. Surely a tribe of stone-throwers could afford to lose many more males than females, of childbearing age. Plus males are shit at picking berries.. (jk)
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#47  Postby Doubtdispelled » Apr 09, 2020 6:52 pm

Ironclad wrote:
I would imagine, but have not checked for evidence, that early societies which embraced female hunters would have either failed and collapsed or changed the plan promptly.


No, the men would have been just like lions......
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#48  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 09, 2020 7:34 pm

Bjork likes hunting, according to this classic track (Dilli remix ; )) and I'd personally bet money on her being able to creep up on a springbok in the dead of night and slit it's throat.

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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#49  Postby Fallible » Apr 09, 2020 7:39 pm

Oh well, since we are resorting to songs at this early stage, allow me to point out that even your Björk selections are inadequate.

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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#50  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 09, 2020 7:47 pm

Even? Blimey. You know what they say about taste (accounting for it, that is) and I'm an old DnB head so...Dillinja innit.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#51  Postby Fallible » Apr 09, 2020 7:51 pm

I didn’t actually mean that. I meant that there’s an actual song she did called Hunter, which literally says ‘I’m going hunting. I’m a hunter’, and it was quite funny that you didn’t post the song that spelled it out.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#52  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 09, 2020 7:55 pm

There's the sample in the track I posted where bjork says "I'm going hunting" - at least twice - but anyway, did you mean the bit where you consider my inadequacies to be so comprehensive that I "even" choose the "wrong" Bjork track?
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#53  Postby Fallible » Apr 09, 2020 7:56 pm

I just told you what I meant. It starts with ‘I meant that...’ and continues from there.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#54  Postby laklak » Apr 09, 2020 8:22 pm

I don't think they have springbok in Iceland. Seals, sure, but antelopes are a bit thin on the ground.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#55  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 09, 2020 8:28 pm

laklak wrote:Swazis are very patriarchal. Polygamy is very common, and it is not at all unusual to see the men sitting about under a tree drinking while the women do all the work.


Same here, and of course, women expect it to be that way and are quick to explain it away. Same thing happens here when a guy cheats on his partner: other women will shrug - just boys being boys.


laklak wrote:Despite her love for all things Swazi, Mrs. Lak has not embraced ether polygamy or doing all the work while I lie about drinking beer in the shade.


When in Mbabane!



Edit: darn aphasia.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#56  Postby Spearthrower » Apr 09, 2020 8:36 pm

Ironclad wrote:^Plenty of bears around your parts, I guess. :D

I would imagine, but have not checked for evidence, that early societies which embraced female hunters would have either failed and collapsed or changed the plan promptly. Surely a tribe of stone-throwers could afford to lose many more males than females, of childbearing age. Plus males are shit at picking berries.. (jk)


The thing is, when you've got a bunch of just post-pubescent males lying around, things can get a bit fraught. Pleistocene women probably didn't even like meat, but still thought it better to send the boys off to take their angst out on the wildlife rather than braining each other. Bit of peace and quiet for a few days.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#57  Postby Svartalf » Apr 09, 2020 8:59 pm

laklak wrote:I don't think they have springbok in Iceland. Seals, sure, but antelopes are a bit thin on the ground.

wait till they invite over the South African rugby team.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#58  Postby Ironclad » Apr 09, 2020 10:56 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
Ironclad wrote:
I would imagine, but have not checked for evidence, that early societies which embraced female hunters would have either failed and collapsed or changed the plan promptly.


No, the men would have been just like lions......
Lazy fucks?
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#59  Postby Doubtdispelled » Apr 10, 2020 10:59 am

Ironclad wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
Ironclad wrote:
I would imagine, but have not checked for evidence, that early societies which embraced female hunters would have either failed and collapsed or changed the plan promptly.


No, the men would have been just like lions......
Lazy fucks?

Only after they had used their superior strength to steal the major portion of the female's kill, y'know, the 'lion's share'.
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Re: The Patriarchy - is it small or even dead in the West?

#60  Postby Keep It Real » Apr 10, 2020 11:33 am

Lionising men - now there's an unfashionable MO.
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