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Re: Twitch.tv

#41  Postby Evolving » Jan 26, 2019 4:39 pm

tuco wrote:
I would guess so yes, and as a trend? Should women put pressure on women who produce sexual content and profit from toxic masculinity?


I understand why you raise the question, but I think it's a false equivalence: men practising toxic masculinity, and women profiting from it (assuming for the sake of argument that that is what they are doing), are not the same thing. They are at opposite ends of a power gradient. Though I can see that they are perhaps both cementing that gradient in their different ways.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#42  Postby tuco » Jan 26, 2019 4:40 pm

felltoearth wrote:
tuco wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
tuco wrote:

I dont really care what acceptable for you but ok. The question was if its cool and if not whether other women should not tell her its not just like men in the Gillette ad.

So what you are asking is, in the context where two people agree it's acceptable to show their privates, is it acceptable?


No. I wrote the question in OP and in the post you quoted.


And given your comments since I have refined it. What's so hard about this with you?


Hard about what? Answering your questions? I dont care to answer them. As I told Fallible, to me they are irrelevant, potentially taking the debate off topic. I understand you might feel differently but as you cant force people to show feet you cant force me to engage in something I dont want to.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#43  Postby tuco » Jan 26, 2019 4:44 pm

Evolving wrote:
tuco wrote:
I would guess so yes, and as a trend? Should women put pressure on women who produce sexual content and profit from toxic masculinity?


I understand why you raise the question, but I think it's a false equivalence: men practising toxic masculinity, and women profiting from it (assuming for the sake of argument that that is what they are doing), are not the same thing. They are at opposite ends of a power gradient. Though I can see that they are perhaps both cementing that gradient in their different ways.


Thanks.

I agree they are not the same, but that was not the question, nor I wanted to frame it that way.

Just we have a group A who says that asking to show boobs is not cool. Alright. Then we have a group B who profits from people who ask to show boobs. In my understanding, group B does nothing to further the argument that its not cool, since they profit from it.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#44  Postby Evolving » Jan 26, 2019 5:11 pm

Surely the difference is consent. Group B is consciously and willingly offering itself as a displayer of boobs (assuming there is no coercion involved, which seems unlikely here), and good for them, if that is what they want; group A has no connection with the men "asking" and feels pestered and demeaned by the unwelcome attention.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#45  Postby felltoearth » Jan 26, 2019 5:13 pm

tuco wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
tuco wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
So what you are asking is, in the context where two people agree it's acceptable to show their privates, is it acceptable?


No. I wrote the question in OP and in the post you quoted.


And given your comments since I have refined it. What's so hard about this with you?


Hard about what? Answering your questions? I dont care to answer them. As I told Fallible, to me they are irrelevant, potentially taking the debate off topic. I understand you might feel differently but as you cant force people to show feet you cant force me to engage in something I dont want to.

It’s not actually. You asked whether women should tell other women that their sexual behavior is wrong. Whta is consensual between two people is acceptable, end of. As mentioned the comparison to the Gilette ad is a false equivalence in this regard and whether or not it’s woman doing the judging is superfluous to the actual question and answer.

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Re: Twitch.tv

#46  Postby tuco » Jan 26, 2019 5:28 pm

Evolving wrote:Surely the difference is consent. Group B is consciously and willingly offering itself as a displayer of boobs (assuming there is no coercion involved, which seems unlikely here), and good for them, if that is what they want; group A has no connection with the men "asking" and feels pestered and demeaned by the unwelcome attention.


There is but its not subject of this debate as it's fairly obvious that the difference is consent.

I will try it one more time, I know I said it but Evolving always been decent to me, we are in a situation when presumably, and according to the Gillette ad which was according to my observations perceived positively around here, men should tell other men they are not cool if they spot toxic masculinity aimed at women. So far so good?

Now we have some women who, partially, profit from toxic masculinity. I do not understand why women should not tell the women in question they are not cool allowing and profiting from toxic masculinity.

I mean, men should teach other men to behave but women who accept not behaving men do not need to be taught anything? To me it does not compute. I am not saying I am a holder of any truth. I asked a question, honestly, with a hope people would think it through.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#47  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 26, 2019 5:36 pm

You aren't listening.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#48  Postby tuco » Jan 26, 2019 5:46 pm

I am surely not listening to what I consider irrelevant, off-topic, or obvious like asking me:

How is this streamer issue? .. streamer has complete control over her/his channel and is responsible for content, chat included
wtf ..
Is it acceptable to walk up to a woman in public who is showing cleavage and say “show me your boobs?” .. wtf? I have no idea how this is relevant.
etc

Let's say I am in one of the channels. Someone displays toxic masculinity. Am I or am I not to object? No, because the streamer is allowing it? Ok but then the streamer accommodates displays of toxic masculinity, acting directly against the spirit of what I am to uphold. I mean, if some women accept it, then there is no question in my mind that some men will continue being toxic simply because in their minds .. some women like it.

edit: In conclusion, as toxic men should be taught not to be toxic, women who accept such toxicity should be taught not to accept it. Or?
Last edited by tuco on Jan 26, 2019 5:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#49  Postby Evolving » Jan 26, 2019 5:56 pm

My thoughts, based on my indisputable qualification to opine on this issue: :)

Taking group A: if I'm a woman (Annegret, say) in that group, I don't want to be pestered by a man in whom I have no sexual or romantic interest. If that man continues to pester me, he is overstepping the mark and ought to stop; and if his friend can see what is going on and restrains him, then that friend is helping: he's helping Annegret, obviously, but he's also helping his male friend, in that he is more likely to have success with women if he behaves in a more adult way.

A woman in group B, on the other hand, (Belinda) is consciously entering a situation in which the same activities by the male participants are welcomed. Belinda is not being pestered. Possible that she is being demeaned, but that was her choice. The behaviour is OK as long as it stays within the defined area in which it has been invited.

Should Annegret disapprove of Belinda? Quite possibly she does. In my opinion the only reasonable justification for that disapproval (the only one that I can think of at the moment, anyway) is if Belinda's activities encourage the men concerned to believe that their behaviour is acceptable outside the defined area. That ought not to be the case, but perhaps it is.

EDIT: and this is your point here:

tuco wrote: I mean, if some women accept it, then there is no question in my mind that some men will continue being toxic simply because in their minds .. some women like it.


I think you have a point.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#50  Postby tuco » Jan 26, 2019 6:05 pm

As a side note, I've been following Twitch for some time now and one of my reason is that its Ph.D. material. What I wanted to say, however, that sometimes I am amazed what the girls are willing to ignore.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#51  Postby scott1328 » Jan 27, 2019 12:40 am

I think that a women can show her boobs and otherwise profit from toxic masculinity so long as she the permission of her husband, father, or brother.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#52  Postby laklak » Jan 27, 2019 4:03 am

I once went to what is colloquially referred to as a 'titty bar'. There were women there who were, well, naked, writhing around on the stage and shaking their goodies at the menz. if you gave them money they would shake their "money maker" right in your face. Fuckin' Ace, dudes.

Anyway, I went outside and asked the first woman I saw if I could stick a rolled up dollar bill between her ass cheeks. She got all fucking offended and shit. I mean, what's up with that? What's a guy supposed to do? Honestly, how the fuck are we supposed to know which women will show us her tits if we don't fucking ask? I was being goddamned polite by asking, instead of just grabbing her and shoving the money up her bum.

Fucking women. I'll never understand them.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#53  Postby Hermit » Jan 27, 2019 5:19 am

tuco wrote:Question is, in the light of Gillette ad or just the current debate on gender, should women tell the streamers in question that they are not cool, just like men should tell other men their toxic masculinity is not cool?

tuco wrote:The question was if its cool and if not whether other women should tell her its not, just like men in the Gillette ad.

No. As Evolving mentioned:
Evolving wrote:... I think it's a false equivalence: men practising toxic masculinity, and women profiting from it (assuming for the sake of argument that that is what they are doing), are not the same thing. They are at opposite ends of a power gradient.

tuco wrote:I agree they are not the same, but that was not the question, nor I wanted to frame it that way.

And yet you framed the question with reference to the Gillette ad. Twice. You seem to not grok Evolving's point, which is that there is too much of a difference between toxic masculinity on one hand and women who exploit primitive men for material gain on the other to argue that as men are encouraged to stop other men to harass women, so women should be encouraged to stop other women from making money out of them. There simply is not sufficient equivalence between the two situations.

tuco wrote:
Evolving wrote:Surely the difference is consent. Group B is consciously and willingly offering itself as a displayer of boobs (assuming there is no coercion involved, which seems unlikely here), and good for them, if that is what they want; group A has no connection with the men "asking" and feels pestered and demeaned by the unwelcome attention.

There is but its not subject of this debate as it's fairly obvious that the difference is consent.

It is precisely the prime difference why I, and it seems most everyone else, reply in the negative. The women in Twitch's IRL section want to exploit their clientele for material gain. It would not surprise me that many of them would drop their bikini tops if Twitch allowed it and if it meant more revenue. Not many women consent to be sexually harassed.

Yes, I know you will reply along the lines of "Yabbut it encourages toxic masculinity." Laklak demolished that claim with humorous sarcasm here:
laklak wrote:I once went to what is colloquially referred to as a 'titty bar'. There were women there who were, well, naked, writhing around on the stage and shaking their goodies at the menz. if you gave them money they would shake their "money maker" right in your face. Fuckin' Ace, dudes.

Anyway, I went outside and asked the first woman I saw if I could stick a rolled up dollar bill between her ass cheeks. She got all fucking offended and shit. I mean, what's up with that? What's a guy supposed to do? Honestly, how the fuck are we supposed to know which women will show us her tits if we don't fucking ask? I was being goddamned polite by asking, instead of just grabbing her and shoving the money up her bum.

Fucking women. I'll never understand them.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#54  Postby Evolving » Jan 27, 2019 7:38 am

scott1328 wrote:I think that a women can show her boobs and otherwise profit from toxic masculinity so long as she the permission of her husband, father, or brother.


I quite agree.

:lol:
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Re: Twitch.tv

#55  Postby Ironclad » Jan 27, 2019 9:18 am

LakLak has no morals. :nono:
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Re: Twitch.tv

#56  Postby Hermit » Jan 27, 2019 9:23 am

Ironclad wrote:LakLak has no morals. :nono:

You definitely have no sensus humour.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#57  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 27, 2019 9:27 am

My dad said it was OK.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#58  Postby LucidFlight » Jan 27, 2019 10:01 am

laklak wrote:I once went to what is colloquially referred to as a 'titty bar'. There were women there who were, well, naked, writhing around on the stage and shaking their goodies at the menz. if you gave them money they would shake their "money maker" right in your face. Fuckin' Ace, dudes.

Anyway, I went outside and asked the first woman I saw if I could stick a rolled up dollar bill between her ass cheeks. She got all fucking offended and shit. I mean, what's up with that? What's a guy supposed to do? Honestly, how the fuck are we supposed to know which women will show us her tits if we don't fucking ask? I was being goddamned polite by asking, instead of just grabbing her and shoving the money up her bum.

Fucking women. I'll never understand them.


This needs to be documented in the next Gillette ad.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#59  Postby tuco » Jan 27, 2019 12:20 pm

Hermit wrote:
tuco wrote:Question is, in the light of Gillette ad or just the current debate on gender, should women tell the streamers in question that they are not cool, just like men should tell other men their toxic masculinity is not cool?

tuco wrote:The question was if its cool and if not whether other women should tell her its not, just like men in the Gillette ad.

No. As Evolving mentioned:
Evolving wrote:... I think it's a false equivalence: men practising toxic masculinity, and women profiting from it (assuming for the sake of argument that that is what they are doing), are not the same thing. They are at opposite ends of a power gradient.

tuco wrote:I agree they are not the same, but that was not the question, nor I wanted to frame it that way.

And yet you framed the question with reference to the Gillette ad. Twice. You seem to not grok Evolving's point, which is that there is too much of a difference between toxic masculinity on one hand and women who exploit primitive men for material gain on the other to argue that as men are encouraged to stop other men to harass women, so women should be encouraged to stop other women from making money out of them. There simply is not sufficient equivalence between the two situations.

tuco wrote:
Evolving wrote:Surely the difference is consent. Group B is consciously and willingly offering itself as a displayer of boobs (assuming there is no coercion involved, which seems unlikely here), and good for them, if that is what they want; group A has no connection with the men "asking" and feels pestered and demeaned by the unwelcome attention.

There is but its not subject of this debate as it's fairly obvious that the difference is consent.

It is precisely the prime difference why I, and it seems most everyone else, reply in the negative. The women in Twitch's IRL section want to exploit their clientele for material gain. It would not surprise me that many of them would drop their bikini tops if Twitch allowed it and if it meant more revenue. Not many women consent to be sexually harassed.

Yes, I know you will reply along the lines of "Yabbut it encourages toxic masculinity." Laklak demolished that claim with humorous sarcasm here:
laklak wrote:I once went to what is colloquially referred to as a 'titty bar'. There were women there who were, well, naked, writhing around on the stage and shaking their goodies at the menz. if you gave them money they would shake their "money maker" right in your face. Fuckin' Ace, dudes.

Anyway, I went outside and asked the first woman I saw if I could stick a rolled up dollar bill between her ass cheeks. She got all fucking offended and shit. I mean, what's up with that? What's a guy supposed to do? Honestly, how the fuck are we supposed to know which women will show us her tits if we don't fucking ask? I was being goddamned polite by asking, instead of just grabbing her and shoving the money up her bum.

Fucking women. I'll never understand them.


Let me just note that the only equivalence between the ad and what I described is that members of one gender should take actions against members of their own gender if such members do not act cool.

I asked this before, how cool is profiting from toxic masculinity, thus inevitably going against the spirit of the Gillette ad? If its cool, I forfeit my point. The philosophy is to get rid of it not to live from it.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#60  Postby Mike_L » Jan 27, 2019 12:37 pm



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