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Re: Twitch.tv

#61  Postby Hermit » Jan 27, 2019 12:55 pm

tuco wrote:Let me just note that the only equivalence between the ad and what I described is that members of one gender should take actions against members of their own gender if such members do not act cool.

Yeah. Got that. You belatedly acknowledged that one is not like the other. You need not have bothered mentioning the Gillette ad at all for that very reason. Not to mention that you still have not grocked why your suggestion for other women to tell the bikini dancers that they are not acting cool is rubbish. Evolving explained it to you, I explaines it to you, Laklak explained it to you, and you still don't get it. I guess I'll just don't bother trying now.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#62  Postby tuco » Jan 27, 2019 1:10 pm

There is a difference between doing bikini dance and accommodating, tolerating or accepting toxic masculinity. Apparently, debates have enormous reading comprehension difficulties, because I have mentioned this numerous times, and Laklak? I like him but all he has are cool stories.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#63  Postby Evolving » Jan 27, 2019 1:39 pm

tuco wrote:Let me just note that the only equivalence between the ad and what I described is that members of one gender should take actions against members of their own gender if such members do not act cool.

I asked this before, how cool is profiting from toxic masculinity, thus inevitably going against the spirit of the Gillette ad? If its cool, I forfeit my point. The philosophy is to get rid of it not to live from it.


I said yesterday that you had a point, but having thought about it a bit more today I don't think it's a very good point.

It's basically the same discussion as around sex work. Are female sex workers (assuming they are in it voluntarily and are not being coerced) making a valid choice to offer a product on a market that exists in our real world? Or are they perpetuating the patriarchy and thus the enemies of right-thinking feminists? Both views can be found. (Personally I incline to the former.)

Here, too, I suppose there is the danger that some of the punters might conclude that women generally are inclined to behave like the service providers that they have encountered on this market, and that it's therefore ok to approach other women, who are not providing a service on this market, with this expectation. That they might, in other words, behave like the moron in laklak's satire.

How hard is it to work out that the market for sex work, as with the twitch streams, is a special environment that can't be generalised? Are women responsible for the stupidity of certain men? Well, other than when they are our minor sons.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#64  Postby felltoearth » Jan 27, 2019 1:50 pm

I also think it’s a mischaracterization to say all Feminists are against sex work.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#65  Postby Evolving » Jan 27, 2019 1:53 pm

I'm a feminist.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#66  Postby Rachel Bronwyn » Jan 27, 2019 1:58 pm

You can't blame women for doing exactly what they're valued for, even if it does perpetuate crappy behaviour from men, when it's what pays the bills.

I've taken off my clothes for money at various points in my life. There are plenty of things I'd rather have done but none of them paid as well at the time. No one else paid for me to go to university.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#67  Postby Evolving » Jan 27, 2019 2:07 pm

Well, exactly. And whose fault is men's behaviour?
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Re: Twitch.tv

#68  Postby felltoearth » Jan 27, 2019 2:16 pm

Evolving wrote:I'm a feminist.

Indeed as am I but in terms of what that means in the spectrum of feminism it doesn’t mean a great deal and perhaps muddies the response to Tuco who seems concerned about how woman judge what people consensually do. At least I think that’s what he’s talking about. Hard to tell because he keeps bringing up the Gillette ad for some reason.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#69  Postby tuco » Jan 27, 2019 2:29 pm

Evolving wrote:
tuco wrote:Let me just note that the only equivalence between the ad and what I described is that members of one gender should take actions against members of their own gender if such members do not act cool.

I asked this before, how cool is profiting from toxic masculinity, thus inevitably going against the spirit of the Gillette ad? If its cool, I forfeit my point. The philosophy is to get rid of it not to live from it.


I said yesterday that you had a point, but having thought about it a bit more today I don't think it's a very good point.

It's basically the same discussion as around sex work. Are female sex workers (assuming they are in it voluntarily and are not being coerced) making a valid choice to offer a product on a market that exists in our real world? Or are they perpetuating the patriarchy and thus the enemies of right-thinking feminists? Both views can be found. (Personally I incline to the former.)

Here, too, I suppose there is the danger that some of the punters might conclude that women generally are inclined to behave like the service providers that they have encountered on this market, and that it's therefore ok to approach other women, who are not providing a service on this market, with this expectation. That they might, in other words, behave like the moron in laklak's satire.

How hard is it to work out that the market for sex work, as with the twitch streams, is a special environment that can't be generalised? Are women responsible for the stupidity of certain men? Well, other than when they are our minor sons.


I know you were trying to understand what I was trying to say. Not everyone is like that.

I have been with many sex workers not once anything resembling toxic was going on iirc. In my opening post I stated:

female streamers who, apparently, use their sex appeal to get viewers and earn money. Now there is nothing wrong with that imo


and 3 pages later I get to read, again, how bikini dance does not frame with Gillette ad. Of course it does, in the sense I talk about, telling members of own gender when they do not act cool. As I said, streamers are responsible for the chat. They can ban displays of toxic masculinity. Some do that and some don't. The question was: Are those who allow it cool? Because I can't see how they are cool since they allow toxic masculinity.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#70  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 27, 2019 2:34 pm

tuco wrote:There is a difference between doing bikini dance and accommodating, tolerating or accepting toxic masculinity.


If you have some solid knowledge of the factors implicated in toxic masculinity, now would be a good time to document it. Are there recognized factors that keep men glued to their computer monitors in search of whatever kind of fantasy femininity they've fetishized, as opposed to interacting with real humans? By the time anyone has to accommodate, tolerate, or accept such behavior in public, I tend to think it's far too late to reduce the mismatch between fantasy and reality.

I eagerly await your response, anticipating your usual articulate, educated, and straightforward approach.

tuco wrote:As I said, streamers are responsible for the chat. They can ban displays of toxic masculinity. Some do that and some don't. The question was: Are those who allow it cool? Because I can't see how they are cool since they allow toxic masculinity.


Given the problem they'd have to overcome, they'd just be cutting off a potential income source. They've not signed on as educators; they're exploiting a problem someone or something else has made.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#71  Postby tuco » Jan 27, 2019 2:38 pm

The example was: show boobs.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#72  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 27, 2019 2:40 pm

tuco wrote:The example was: show boobs.


The way people act online? Never heard of people being bolder online than they are in real life?
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Re: Twitch.tv

#73  Postby tuco » Jan 27, 2019 2:43 pm

How is that relevant?

Either we are to act against toxic masculinity, according to Gillette by men telling toxic men they are not cool, and according to me in similar fashion women telling those women who tolerate it they are not cool, or not.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#74  Postby tuco » Jan 27, 2019 2:46 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
tuco wrote:There is a difference between doing bikini dance and accommodating, tolerating or accepting toxic masculinity.


If you have some solid knowledge of the factors implicated in toxic masculinity, now would be a good time to document it. Are there recognized factors that keep men glued to their computer monitors in search of whatever kind of fantasy femininity they've fetishized, as opposed to interacting with real humans? By the time anyone has to accommodate, tolerate, or accept such behavior in public, I tend to think it's far too late to reduce the mismatch between fantasy and reality.

I eagerly await your response, anticipating your usual articulate, educated, and straightforward approach.

tuco wrote:As I said, streamers are responsible for the chat. They can ban displays of toxic masculinity. Some do that and some don't. The question was: Are those who allow it cool? Because I can't see how they are cool since they allow toxic masculinity.


Given the problem they'd have to overcome, they'd just be cutting off a potential income source. They've not signed on as educators; they're exploiting a problem someone or something else has made.


Men who are to tell other men they are not cool when toxic signed up? Of course, they did not. The Gillette ad, however, appeals to men to do just that.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#75  Postby felltoearth » Jan 27, 2019 2:47 pm

tuco wrote:How is that relevant?

Either we are to act against toxic masculinity, according to Gillette by men telling toxic men they are not cool, and according to me in similar fashion women telling those women who tolerate it they are not cool, or not.

I think you need to reread your own thread. You’re going over ground already covered by any number of people here.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#76  Postby Evolving » Jan 27, 2019 2:48 pm

They're tolerating the behaviour in a defined environment, not in general. I think this is the key difference. Similarly, in a boxing match behaviour is tolerated and encouraged that would not be acceptable outside the ring.

The question is, can the participants recognise and respect the boundary between that defined environment and real life? and whose fault is it if they can't?
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Re: Twitch.tv

#77  Postby Cito di Pense » Jan 27, 2019 2:52 pm

tuco wrote:How is that relevant?

Either we are to act against toxic masculinity, according to Gillette by men telling toxic men they are not cool, and according to me in similar fashion women telling those women who tolerate it they are not cool, or not.


So, really, you're still just having a problem with somebody's response to the Gillette commercial. That's not Gillette's problem, and it's not the problem of the person or persons you're currently having a problem with.

Nothing is preventing you from telling men exhibiting toxic masculinity that they're not cool, and some of the time you might get a satisfying response to that. Other times, you might get your teeth kicked in by toxic masculinity.

It has nothing to do with Twitch.tv. This thread is just an obfuscation of the problem you're really having, which doesn't seem any more to be specifically with toxic masculinity (when it's directed at women).
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Re: Twitch.tv

#78  Postby tuco » Jan 27, 2019 2:57 pm

Evolving wrote:They're tolerating the behaviour in a defined environment, not in general. I think this is the key difference. Similarly, in a boxing match behaviour is tolerated and encouraged that would not be acceptable outside the ring.

The question is, can the participants recognise and respect the boundary between that defined environment and real life? and whose fault is it if they can't?


My guess is that many of the viewers are minors. Tho I've seen people to claim to be over 40, with a family, looking for side action.

The question is right on the point but I do not think it has a concrete answer. If I imagine two scenarios:

1. displays of toxic masculinity in a defined, yet public, environment allowed
2. displays of toxic masculinity not allowed anywhere in public

and if my aim was to reduce toxic masculinity, I'd go for #2.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#79  Postby tuco » Jan 27, 2019 3:02 pm

Cito di Pense wrote:
tuco wrote:How is that relevant?

Either we are to act against toxic masculinity, according to Gillette by men telling toxic men they are not cool, and according to me in similar fashion women telling those women who tolerate it they are not cool, or not.


So, really, you're still just having a problem with somebody's response to the Gillette commercial. That's not Gillette's problem, and it's not the problem of the person or persons you're currently having a problem with.

Nothing is preventing you from telling men exhibiting toxic masculinity that they're not cool, and some of the time you might get a satisfying response to that. Other times, you might get your teeth kicked in by toxic masculinity.

It has nothing to do with Twitch.tv. This thread is just an obfuscation of the problem you're really having, which doesn't seem any more to be specifically with toxic masculinity (when it's directed at women).


No, I do not have a problem with someone's reaction. Seeing your mind reading abilities and knowing your posting style from history, find someone else, will you? This is waste of time and energy for me. I learn nothing from you these days.
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Re: Twitch.tv

#80  Postby Evolving » Jan 27, 2019 3:06 pm

There are lots of things available on the internet that I don't want my child to encounter. It's a challenge. Parental controls only work imperfectly, on my child's own devices, and of course there are her peers who are not subject to my parental controls. My task would be a lot easier if these things were prohibited.

My challenge (with regard to what we're talking about here) would be much more direct if I had a son, who I really didn't want to grow up thinking that toxic masculinity is ok.

It's difficult. But I'm still inclined to think that people should be free to offer their services in these environments, and not be nannied by people who disapprove. Even though I do disapprove, and wish that the men would grow up and no longer be in the market for these things.
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