Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#21  Postby Rumraket » May 31, 2018 8:49 am

purplerat wrote:
Rumraket wrote:It does make me wonder as I believe I see two contradictory viewpoints expressed by various groups.

On the one hand there are people who advance a viewpoint that basically says that gender is a social construct that doesn't really biologically exist, and on the other hand there are people who insist they're born the wrong gender, and that the biological "equipment" they were born with is significantly diagnostic of their gender identity. I'm not sure whether they're the same people saying both things, or whether they're actually two opposing groups. Or whether they are even aware of the implied contradiction.

I suppose the former group could basically just respond that it is the surrounding society that has indoctrinated them to think that the gender-identity experienced by the latter is them falling victim to a social construct of some sort. But then doesn't that imply that the people who feel they've been born the wrong gender should instead come to realize that their problem isn't actually their physical attributes, but their self-image imposed on them by the surrounding culture? That they can in fact be a man with boobs and a vagina (sorry for implying these could go together) or whatever other organ package they desire?

I don't think they have to be contradictory.

Gender could be viewed as largely a social construct but how one fits into that is largely determined by biology. Think of it like occupation. Nobody is born a doctor or teacher or trash collector. They are effectively social constructs but people are born with traits that will suit them better for some jobs but not others. But then even somebody who might show a strong aptitude for one occupation at an early age may later find that they would be much happier pursuing a different career.

The question then is what's more important; strictly enforcing how society thinks individuals should fit into these constructs or letting individuals determine what works best for themselves. To that I have to imagine both of the aforementioned sides would prefer the latter.

I understand what you're saying and I completely agree that people should have the freedom to determine for themselves what gender they feel like they are or belong to.

Though it's not bad I do take a tiny issue with your career choise vs aptitude analogy. It is the rather arbitrary labeling of people with certain collections of aptitudes that is the social construct, and in that sense it certainly is a social construct that we have decided to label certain collections of "aptitudes"(organs, chromosomes, whatever) male or female. But what can't be said to be a social construct is the very existence of those aptitudes. They exist, and they can be used as diagnostic or descriptive traits if for no other purpose than ease of communication. That doesn't mean that we should therefore impose on people that they engage in certain behaviors just because they came equipped with certain physical attributes, though I fully acknowledge that there are many people who would argue that it should.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#22  Postby I'm With Stupid » May 31, 2018 8:59 am

Slightly related, Germaine Greer's just put her foot in her mouth again. Suggested that rape isn't usually violent and should be given a community sentence.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#23  Postby Keep It Real » May 31, 2018 1:31 pm

Rachel Bronwyn wrote:Those devestating procedures are performed to prevent suicide, which is through the roof amongst trans teens. They're not readily available in most places and those who do have access to and utilise or prescribe and perform such services don't embark on them lightly.


They're not trans kids Rachel - they're kids with gender dysphoria. That is an extremely important distinction imo.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#24  Postby Sendraks » May 31, 2018 1:52 pm

Keep It Real wrote:They're not trans kids Rachel - they're kids with gender dysphoria. That is an extremely important distinction imo.


And what is the distinction?
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#25  Postby Keep It Real » May 31, 2018 3:26 pm

A trans individual is somebody who lives as the opposite gender frequently to that which their biology at birth proscribed. If every child who says circa "I don't like being male, I'd much rather be female, that would feel so much more comfortable for me" is instantaneously described as being trans then it obviates any possible solution to gender dysphoria other than assuming a trans identity/lifestyle/surgery.

Without meaning to stretch an analogy too far, if somebody said "I don't like being black, I'd much rather be oriental, that would feel so much more comfortable for me" would society at large be so quick to describe that person as being trans racial?

Michael Jackson's whitifying surgery anybody?...what a hero of liberty and anti-discrimination for trans people /sarcasm.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#26  Postby Keep It Real » May 31, 2018 3:58 pm

aban57 wrote:It kinda looks like Michael Jackson. Without the hat.


How very congruent that aban57, who says he's on the verge of initiating attempted biological gender switching, would mention Michal Jackson too.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#27  Postby Sendraks » May 31, 2018 4:16 pm

Keep It Real wrote:A trans individual is somebody who lives as the opposite gender frequently to that which their biology at birth proscribed. If every child who says circa "I don't like being male, I'd much rather be female, that would feel so much more comfortable for me" is instantaneously described as being trans then it obviates any possible solution to gender dysphoria other than assuming a trans identity/lifestyle/surgery.


Are there other solutions?
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#28  Postby Keep It Real » May 31, 2018 4:31 pm

Only those hypothesised, developed and expounded by real men ; ) and such people tend to be total pariahs these days and so fail to make much headway circa genpop due to the PH problem IMO.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#29  Postby Sendraks » May 31, 2018 4:45 pm

Fair enough. Because the expert advice available and recommended treatment options are, for people with gender dysphoria, being supported in some form of trans lifestyle. Which is why gender dysphoira and trans are frequently used interchangeably.

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

Key headline from this.

This mismatch between sex and gender identity can lead to distressing and uncomfortable feelings that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#30  Postby Keep It Real » May 31, 2018 5:04 pm

You wish to discuss appropriate definitions of the term "mental illness" with me Sendraks?
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#31  Postby Sendraks » May 31, 2018 5:07 pm

Nope. That's the NHS talking there. If you want to argue with the experts, I suggest you drop them a line.

Speaking as someone with a long term mental illness, I really don't care to get into a discussion with you on your ex-recto opinions on what defines mental illness.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#32  Postby Keep It Real » May 31, 2018 5:09 pm

TTFN then pissy doglet :bye:
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#33  Postby Sendraks » May 31, 2018 5:12 pm

Bye yourself.

If you have an issue with how actual experts define mental health, take it up with them. You have nothing to discuss with me on that matter, given you are long way from being an expert.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#34  Postby Keep It Real » May 31, 2018 5:13 pm

Expert is as expert does - otherwise it's just an appeal to authority. Obviously.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#35  Postby Keep It Real » May 31, 2018 5:18 pm

And even if your comment were even as much as an appeal to authority, do you know the qualifications and/or vested interests of the individuals who made that sentence appear on that NHS URL? Of course you don't.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#36  Postby Sendraks » May 31, 2018 6:16 pm

If you want to make an appeal to ignorance go ahead. If you make an appeal to knowledge, ANY, source of knowledge which supports your statement as to why we should not take what the NHS says, seriously.

As it stands, you're presenting nothing other empty fatuous utterances and there's no reason to take you seriously.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#37  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 01, 2018 12:20 am

Keep It Real wrote:And even if your comment were even as much as an appeal to authority, do you know the qualifications and/or vested interests of the individuals who made that sentence appear on that NHS URL? Of course you don't.


Less still the logical reasoning and/or experimental support upon which such a sentence is (not, IMO) based...
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#38  Postby aban57 » Jun 01, 2018 1:01 pm

Don't worry KIR, despite your taunt, I won't bother addressing the toxicly high level of stupidity and ignorance you showed here. I have more interesting things to do than trying to educate someone who writes such bullshit.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#39  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 01, 2018 8:12 pm

Taunt? I so very much wasn't targeting you personally, nor any gender dysphoric people judged by those in "authority" to be "born in the wrong body"...I don't target victims of the system, as a general rule, and most certainly not you ratskep aban57.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#40  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 01, 2018 8:27 pm

Here's a fun idea - lets deride circumcision and approve of gender reassignment genital butchery. At least the former serves some purpose circa hygene...yet both are frankly ignorant as :insert DEVESTATING expletive:
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