Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#41  Postby Cito di Pense » Jun 01, 2018 8:30 pm

Keep It Real wrote:Here's a fun idea - lets deride circumcision and approve of gender reassignment genital butchery. At least the former serves some purpose circa hygene...yet both are frankly ignorant as :insert DEVESTATING expletive:


You missed the part where one of these is voluntary on the part of the person undergoing the surgery. Go stand in front of a piercing shoppe with your protest sign.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#42  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 01, 2018 8:32 pm

You missed the part where free will is a myth.
You're only conscious when you're thinking about consciousness.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#43  Postby Spinozasgalt » Jun 02, 2018 2:40 am

I guess you can't distinguish in even a simple way between being forced and volunteering, then. :?

Anyway, trans in the usage relevant here is supposed to be Latin-derived and means roughly "across from", just as "cis" is "on the same side as". It's used in this context to refer to a mismatch between a person's gender identity and what they have assigned or attributed to them. So, a trans person's gender identity is across from, rather than on the same side as, the gender or sex they were assigned or attributed. It doesn't mean transitioned. One thus doesn't have to be living as their proper sex or gender in order to be trans. Rachel's usage was fine.

Gender dysphoria refers to the discomfort, stress, etc (there are various ways to described these feelings) that can be caused by this mismatch. It's not about a person wanting or preferring to be one gender/sex or another, either. That's the kind of stuff that went under the title gender identity disorder and that designation effectively conflated trans people with others who exhibited gender non-conformance or dislike of certain gender roles and led to unreliable statistics about desistance of gender dysphoria. Regardless, all you have so far are your claims of "imho" and that such and such is "devastating!!!1!" and "butchery!!!111a!". And any moment now you'll be giving us more of the conspiracy about the powerful trans lobby and dancing around mention of conversion therapy. But you don't even know the basic differences between one thing and another on this topic, so I find it difficult to take you seriously.

You're just doing what you usually do - stringing several pieces of crap together and wearing them as a necklace. You're bigoted against trans people, the same way you have been against gay people and other groups. It's not them, it's you.

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Last edited by Spinozasgalt on Jun 02, 2018 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#44  Postby felltoearth » Jun 02, 2018 4:36 am

You know why circumcision is derided right?
ETA: I see it has been covered.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#45  Postby Fallible » Jun 02, 2018 6:36 am

Keep It Real wrote:You missed the part where free will is a myth.


You missed the part where this has been flogged to death with you countless times and like with most other topics, you just shut your ears like a seal making a dive and continued to assert it was the truth.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#46  Postby Keep It Real » Jun 02, 2018 8:18 pm

Much like the seals, I was fed today, perhaps partly as a result of my "dive", and I bloomin' hope u and urs are having a nice weekend too : )
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#47  Postby aban57 » Jun 03, 2018 12:14 am

http://www.iflscience.com/brain/born-this-way-transgender-brains-show-similarity-to-those-of-their-desired-gender-from-a-young-age/

Following decades of research into genetic and epigenetic factors, medical providers and mental health experts in most western nations have, thankfully, embraced the leading theory that sexual orientation and gender identity are hardwired into the brain during fetal development.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#48  Postby NNY » Jun 03, 2018 4:25 am

aban57 wrote:http://www.iflscience.com/brain/born-this-way-transgender-brains-show-similarity-to-those-of-their-desired-gender-from-a-young-age/

Following decades of research into genetic and epigenetic factors, medical providers and mental health experts in most western nations have, thankfully, embraced the leading theory that sexual orientation and gender identity are hardwired into the brain during fetal development.


The ncbi link that was given here has nothing what so ever to do gender dysphoria nor does it have anything to do with "transgenderism." It mentions gender once and only once. It states

Adolescence is associated with changing social roles, and there is good reason to believe that gender socialization intensifies at that time of life (Crouter et al., 1995; Hill and Lynch, 1983; Stein, 1976).


The ncbi article is about SEX determination. Where genes determine sex and how epigenetics (how methyl groups can 'switch' genes off and on) can affect how gene regulation works. Gene's involved in sex determination for males are not restricted to the Y chromosome, but the SRY gene which starts the ball rolling for sex determination is on the Y chromosome.

Also "hard wiring" has not been proven. In the Bakker study, brain activation areas were studied. Those activation areas were a repeat of a previous 2014 study that Bakker took part in. Her study is a post-hoc study and post-hoc studies are similar to the 'god of the gaps' logical fallacy. But maybe her intuition on this is correct, only time will tell.

When it comes to "expert" opinion, there are always more than one opinion. the Dutch Approach (2012) on GD states
By informing parents about the various psychosexual trajectories, we want them to succeed in finding a sensible middle of the road approach between an accepting and supportive attitude toward their child’s gender dysphoria, while at the same time protecting their child against any negative reactions from others and remaining realistic about the actual situation. If they speak about their natal son as being a girl with a penis, we stress that they have a male child who very much wants to be a girl, but will need an invasive treatment to align his body with his identity if this desire does not remit. Finding the right balance is essential for parents and clinicians because gender variant children are highly vulnerable to developing a negative sense of self (Yunger, Carver, & Perry, 2004).


The Dutch Approach concentrates on the the welfare of the child not the diagnosis of the GD, it states
The Dutch approach to clinical management of children with GID contains elements of a therapeutic approach but is not directed at the gender dysphoria itself. Instead, it focuses on its concomitant emotional and behavioral and family problems that may or may not have an impact on the child’s gender dysphoria.
but if you compare this to Bakker's approach she concentrates on "treating" the gender dysphoria.
The earlier one can start with the treatment, including puberty inhibition with GnRH agonists then followed by cross-sex hormones, the better the outcome
the NHS also takes the approach of treating the GD rather than concentrating on the child with GD
When first introduced, an age of 12 years was recommended for puberty suppression. However, boys and girls enter puberty at different stages.


The Dutch Approach also tries to make sure the child with GD has the mental facilities to make a decision for itself
Because the protocol for young adolescents had started in a period when there were no studies on the effects of puberty suppression, the age limit was set at 12 years because some cognitive and emotional maturation is desirable when starting these physical medical interventions. Further, Dutch adolescents are legally partly competent to make a medical decision together with their parent´s consent at age 12. It is, however, conceivable that when more information about the safety of early hormone treatment becomes available, the age limit may be further adjusted (de Vries, 2010).
but the NHS and Bakker don't seem to take into account the ability of a child to be able to provable reason for itself.

I hope those that read the above have enjoyed my little informative rant on the topic of GD.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#49  Postby Pebble » Jun 03, 2018 6:55 am

It is all very well for someone to feel male or female, but if only self identification is required then abuse of gender recognition is inevitable by those simply using the pretence of being trans as cover for their voyeuristic or other desires.

It is also easy to conceive of circumstances where a non-trans person can end up being traumatised by experiences forced on them by those aggressively insisting on their rights. e.g.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/the-female-nhs-nurse-i-asked-for-came-with-stubble-83rq9p0gg
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#50  Postby Pebble » Jun 03, 2018 8:40 am

NNY wrote:
aban57 wrote:

Also "hard wiring" has not been proven. In the Bakker study, brain activation areas were studied. Those activation areas were a repeat of a previous 2014 study that Bakker took part in. Her study is a post-hoc study and post-hoc studies are similar to the 'god of the gaps' logical fallacy. But maybe her intuition on this is correct, only time will tell.



Not entirely sure that labelling this as post hoc is entirely fair. Certainly 'exploratory' but that is typical of much PhD work. In essence the same population/data were interrogated in different ways. The 2014 study focused on hypothalamic function in both prepubescent and adolescent individuals:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4037295/

In 2016 they published on visuospatial function in adolescents - as this had been previously reported as altered in other studies - so in essence a confirmatory study (had it been prospectively designed with this in mind).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5082510/

The more recent exploration takes the same concept and applies it to prepubescent girls, which is an entirely reasonable approach - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/28972892, sorry abstract only.

I agree one must not over interpret the data, but it would be wasteful not to explore the data gathered, thoroughly in such a difficult population to recruit to studies, and certainly the data presented would help with any future prospective study being designed.

Post hoc is any retrospective data analysis, however it is only comprehensively useless if the data is analysed in a random fashion and publishing only that which delivers a p value, here there was a clear logic presented for the further analysis of the data. I think we are also missing is a clear statement of the original hypothesis, this would be included in the initial study proposal - and may, for all we know, have included these subsequent analyses.

Edited for clarity:
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#51  Postby aban57 » Jun 03, 2018 8:51 am

NNY wrote:
aban57 wrote:http://www.iflscience.com/brain/born-this-way-transgender-brains-show-similarity-to-those-of-their-desired-gender-from-a-young-age/

Following decades of research into genetic and epigenetic factors, medical providers and mental health experts in most western nations have, thankfully, embraced the leading theory that sexual orientation and gender identity are hardwired into the brain during fetal development.


The ncbi link that was given here has nothing what so ever to do gender dysphoria nor does it have anything to do with "transgenderism." It mentions gender once and only once. It states

Adolescence is associated with changing social roles, and there is good reason to believe that gender socialization intensifies at that time of life (Crouter et al., 1995; Hill and Lynch, 1983; Stein, 1976).


The ncbi article is about SEX determination. Where genes determine sex and how epigenetics (how methyl groups can 'switch' genes off and on) can affect how gene regulation works. Gene's involved in sex determination for males are not restricted to the Y chromosome, but the SRY gene which starts the ball rolling for sex determination is on the Y chromosome.

Also "hard wiring" has not been proven. In the Bakker study, brain activation areas were studied. Those activation areas were a repeat of a previous 2014 study that Bakker took part in. Her study is a post-hoc study and post-hoc studies are similar to the 'god of the gaps' logical fallacy. But maybe her intuition on this is correct, only time will tell.

When it comes to "expert" opinion, there are always more than one opinion. the Dutch Approach (2012) on GD states
By informing parents about the various psychosexual trajectories, we want them to succeed in finding a sensible middle of the road approach between an accepting and supportive attitude toward their child’s gender dysphoria, while at the same time protecting their child against any negative reactions from others and remaining realistic about the actual situation. If they speak about their natal son as being a girl with a penis, we stress that they have a male child who very much wants to be a girl, but will need an invasive treatment to align his body with his identity if this desire does not remit. Finding the right balance is essential for parents and clinicians because gender variant children are highly vulnerable to developing a negative sense of self (Yunger, Carver, & Perry, 2004).


The Dutch Approach concentrates on the the welfare of the child not the diagnosis of the GD, it states
The Dutch approach to clinical management of children with GID contains elements of a therapeutic approach but is not directed at the gender dysphoria itself. Instead, it focuses on its concomitant emotional and behavioral and family problems that may or may not have an impact on the child’s gender dysphoria.
but if you compare this to Bakker's approach she concentrates on "treating" the gender dysphoria.
The earlier one can start with the treatment, including puberty inhibition with GnRH agonists then followed by cross-sex hormones, the better the outcome
the NHS also takes the approach of treating the GD rather than concentrating on the child with GD
When first introduced, an age of 12 years was recommended for puberty suppression. However, boys and girls enter puberty at different stages.


The Dutch Approach also tries to make sure the child with GD has the mental facilities to make a decision for itself
Because the protocol for young adolescents had started in a period when there were no studies on the effects of puberty suppression, the age limit was set at 12 years because some cognitive and emotional maturation is desirable when starting these physical medical interventions. Further, Dutch adolescents are legally partly competent to make a medical decision together with their parent´s consent at age 12. It is, however, conceivable that when more information about the safety of early hormone treatment becomes available, the age limit may be further adjusted (de Vries, 2010).
but the NHS and Bakker don't seem to take into account the ability of a child to be able to provable reason for itself.

I hope those that read the above have enjoyed my little informative rant on the topic of GD.


First, the way transgender are treated has nothing to do with how GD appears. It's different in every country, and sometimes has pretty much nothing to do with what science knows on the subject.
Also, as it's said in my quote, the "hard wire" thing is the leading theory (they probably should have said hypothesis), because it's the only one that currently explains all we know. Nobody said it was proven.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#52  Postby NNY » Jun 03, 2018 8:20 pm

aban57 wrote:
NNY wrote:
aban57 wrote:http://www.iflscience.com/brain/born-this-way-transgender-brains-show-similarity-to-those-of-their-desired-gender-from-a-young-age/

First, the way transgender are treated has nothing to do with how GD appears. It's different in every country, and sometimes has pretty much nothing to do with what science knows on the subject.
Also, as it's said in my quote, the "hard wire" thing is the leading theory (they probably should have said hypothesis), because it's the only one that currently explains all we know. Nobody said it was proven.


I agree that how trans is treated and how GD appears are not related, but my response is to Bakker's statement.
We will then be better equipped to support these young people, instead of just sending them to a psychiatrist and hoping that their distress will disappear spontaneously


Bakker also stated the following.
Although more research is needed, we now have evidence that sexual differentiation of the brain differs in young people with GD," lead author Dr Julie Bakker commented about her team’s findings, set to be presented today at the European Society of Endocrinology annual meeting in Barcelona.


Bakker's "evidence" will be true until people who don't have GD have brain scans that correlated to somebody that does have GD.
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Re: Twitter 'bans women against trans ideology', say feminists

#53  Postby NNY » Jun 03, 2018 8:22 pm

Pebble wrote:
NNY wrote:
aban57 wrote:

I agree one must not over interpret the data, but it would be wasteful not to explore the data gathered, thoroughly in such a difficult population to recruit to studies, and certainly the data presented would help with any future prospective study being designed.

Post hoc is any retrospective data analysis, however it is only comprehensively useless if the data is analysed in a random fashion and publishing only that which delivers a p value, here there was a clear logic presented for the further analysis of the data. I think we are also missing is a clear statement of the original hypothesis, this would be included in the initial study proposal - and may, for all we know, have included these subsequent analyses.

Edited for clarity:


Awesome reply.

Thanks.
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