I was reading the Adultery thread today and it got me thinking about something I've thought quite a lot about before. That is, the sheer amount of anxiety, strife, violence, murder, deception, and just general human nastiness that can all be traced back to one word: SEX.

So here's an exercise: Imagine, for a moment, that our society were to develop to a point where we look at sex purely as a biological function, without loading any of the extraneous connotations of ownership, loyalty, duty, shame, guilt, power etc. onto it that we currently do.

Imagine we had no more concept of the virtue or necessity of sexual monogamy, and people could decide their long term relationships based purely on who they like spending time with, while shagging whoever they like whenever they like.

Imagine we had no shame about naked bodies and people could just go around naked wherever they wanted, and children grew up completely used to that.

Imagine we eradicated the relics of religously-inspired shame about things such a masturbation. Imagine you could just excuse yourself in any social situation because you need to go and crack one off, the way you can to go to the toilet, and nobody would think anything of it.

Imagine prostitution was just another job that anybody could say they do and nobody would think anything of it.

Imagine medical science got to the point where we had cures and 100% effective vaccinations for all STDs, and 100% effective contraception with no side effects or effect upon the enjoyment of sex, so there was no practical reason for anybody not to shag whoever they wanted whenever they wanted.

Imagine all the people, living for todaaaaayyyyyy.........

Seriously though: How do you think a complete discarding of sexual neurosis and shame would affect society? What would be different? Would living in such a society be better or worse? How much would it reduce violence, hatred, resentment and distrust? Would anyone be worse off for it? Could such a state be realistically achieved at some point in the future?

It's those pesky chemicals--oxytocin, endorphines, testosterone.





seventhousandfiftyfour fcuks

Beatsong wrote:I was reading the Adultery thread today and it got me thinking about something I've thought quite a lot about before. That is, the sheer amount of anxiety, strife, violence, murder, deception, and just general human nastiness that can all be traced back to one word: SEX.

So here's an exercise: Imagine, for a moment, that our society were to develop to a point where we look at sex purely as a biological function, without loading any of the extraneous connotations of ownership, loyalty, duty, shame, guilt, power etc. onto it that we currently do.

Imagine we had no more concept of the virtue or necessity of sexual monogamy, and people could decide their long term relationships based purely on who they like spending time with, while shagging whoever they like whenever they like.

Imagine we had no shame about naked bodies and people could just go around naked wherever they wanted, and children grew up completely used to that.

Imagine we eradicated the relics of religously-inspired shame about things such a masturbation. Imagine you could just excuse yourself in any social situation because you need to go and crack one off, the way you can to go to the toilet, and nobody would think anything of it.

Imagine prostitution was just another job that anybody could say they do and nobody would think anything of it.

Imagine medical science got to the point where we had cures and 100% effective vaccinations for all STDs, and 100% effective contraception with no side effects or effect upon the enjoyment of sex, so there was no practical reason for anybody not to shag whoever they wanted whenever they wanted.

Imagine all the people, living for todaaaaayyyyyy.........

Seriously though: How do you think a complete discarding of sexual neurosis and shame would affect society? What would be different? Would living in such a society be better or worse? How much would it reduce violence, hatred, resentment and distrust? Would anyone be worse off for it? Could such a state be realistically achieved at some point in the future?

Generalisation. Some of us are relaxed about sex. But I take your point.

I think lots of people are relaxed about sex. Cultures just haven't got there yet.

Having society relaxed about sex makes as much sense as having prey animals relaxed about predators. Sex is an evolved natural selection mechanism. It will intrinsically be vicious.

"What if everybody just relaxed about sex?"

I'll tell you what if: THE WORLD WOULD END!!1!

Beatsong wrote:Imagine we had no shame about naked bodies and people could just go around naked wherever they wanted, and children grew up completely used to that.

I don't like that. Then boobies wouldn't be so very exciting to me. And I like that i like boobies so much.

byofrcs wrote:
Having society relaxed about sex makes as much sense as having prey animals relaxed about predators. Sex is an evolved natural selection mechanism. It will intrinsically be vicious.

You are confusing the physical act itself - which may be vicious - with attitudes towards it - which should not be.

We are no longer living as Neanderthals. We should be more refined than that.

Poor Neanderthals, being slandered like this. There's a bit of Neanderthal in all of us, you know?

In order for EVERY ONE to become relaxed about sex, it will probably take about another 5,000 - 10,000 years of evolution. The hormones gallstones correctly relates to above will have to be relaxed too. If these hormones are relaxed, will there be any desire for sex?

How can sex become relaxed when there are other chemicals tied to sex that cause possessive feelings, jealousy, rage, etc.?

In a perfect future world I guess.

surreptitious57 wrote:

byofrcs wrote:
Having society relaxed about sex makes as much sense as having prey animals relaxed about predators. Sex is an evolved natural selection mechanism. It will intrinsically be vicious.

You are confusing the physical act itself - which may be vicious - with attitudes towards it - which should not be.

We are no longer living as Neanderthals. We should be more refined than that.

If "refined" is selected for genetically then "refined" could be successful but I doubt there is a very clear genetic loci for "refined". Perhaps you should try Eugenics ?

Vicious? Really?

byofrcs wrote:Having society relaxed about sex makes as much sense as having prey animals relaxed about predators. Sex is an evolved natural selection mechanism. It will intrinsically be vicious.

Phwoor! byofrcs likes a bit of rough.

byofrcs wrote:

surreptitious57 wrote:

byofrcs wrote:
Having society relaxed about sex makes as much sense as having prey animals relaxed about predators. Sex is an evolved natural selection mechanism. It will intrinsically be vicious.

You are confusing the physical act itself - which may be vicious - with attitudes towards it - which should not be.

We are no longer living as Neanderthals. We should be more refined than that.

If "refined" is selected for genetically then "refined" could be successful but I doubt there is a very clear genetic loci for "refined". Perhaps you should try Eugenics ?

Refined as in psychological terms, not biological. Our attitude towards sex, not sex itself.

Brave New World?

Recreational sex is an integral part of society. According to The World State, sex is a social activity, rather than a means of reproduction (sex is encouraged from early childhood). The few women who can reproduce are conditioned to use birth control (a "Malthusian belt", resembling a cartridge belt holding "the regulation supply of contraceptives", is a popular fashion accessory). The maxim "everyone belongs to everyone else" is repeated often, and the idea of a "family" is considered pornographic; sexual competition and emotional, romantic relationships are rendered obsolete because they are no longer needed. Marriage, natural birth, parenthood, and pregnancy are considered too obscene to be mentioned in casual conversation. Thus, society has developed a new idea of reproductive comprehension.

Wiki entry on Aldous Huxley's Brave new World

Grace wrote:In order for EVERY ONE to become relaxed about sex, it will probably take about another 5,000 - 10,000 years of evolution. The hormones gallstones correctly relates to above will have to be relaxed too. If these hormones are relaxed, will there be any desire for sex?

How can sex become relaxed when there are other chemicals tied to sex that cause possessive feelings, jealousy, rage, etc.?

In a perfect future world I guess.

uhm, where do you get the numbers "5,000-10,000"? What evolutionary pressures would favour this? What makes you think it's a genetic thing rather than a cultural thing? etc. etc. Sounds like you labor under the misconception that evolution has a preset goal that we're slowly approaching or something.

But..... just think of all the fun to be had in old age homes with little blue pills being the drug of choice.

The only problem is that old men would still want the little woman at home cooking their food, cleaning the house, blahdy blahdy blahdy blah.

Monkeys do the free love thing, very happily, the only trouble is that the big male monkey kicks the young ones out to find their own harems while he increases his. "mine! Go away!"

I don't think humans have evolved beyond that yet.
But yes, I've always wondered what the big hangup is about it. If you're happy eating different foods in restaurants and at home, how come you're so conservative about your other tastes? And why is it such a big secret for children? One big happy family in one big bed. (Or do we draw the line at the kids watching the private porn show?) It doesn't seem to bother people around us who all live in one room and don't care who the hell is watching.

Bonobos seem to do nothing else Epepke.

With a little bit of help from their mothers.
Sex and Society (Bonobos)
And in this one, sex is what makes the difference between violent chimps and peaceable bonobos:
Chimps and Bonobos.

It seems that "make love not war' is not that far off.