What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

Discussions about society in general and social activity.

Moderators: Calilasseia, ADParker

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#21  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Jul 17, 2013 3:38 pm

Shrunk wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:I believe it is morally wrong to produce children through incest, other than that I got nothing.


Ah, yes. That's also a good response to Agrippina's argument, which only works if the sexual activity results in procreation.


I think you have a moral obligation that when you bring someone into the world that you afford them the best possible chance at a healthy happy life. Knowingly gambling with genetically loaded dice is not meeting that obligation in my opinion. Adopt if you want children, anything else would be purely selfish.
"Things don't need to be true, as long as they are believed" - Alexander Nix, CEO Cambridge Analytica
User avatar
CdesignProponentsist
 
Posts: 12686
Age: 53
Male

Country: California
United States (us)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#22  Postby Thommo » Jul 17, 2013 3:38 pm

I think there are moral objections and I suspect that they apply to many cases.

-Unequal power structure. Particularly between parent and child.
-Possibility for producing children with heightened risks of disease.
-From a legal point of view I think there also concerns about the potential difficulty it could create in prosecuting abuse cases where there was no consent, because it becomes he said - she said. Given the amount of harm that parental abuse can cause a revision in the law effectively changing the burden of proof would also have moral implications.

In cases where no children are possible, that are not parent-child relationships (or parent figure-child relationships) and all parties are consenting adults, I don't think I do have any moral objections - though my suspicion is this would be a minority of cases.
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27175

Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#23  Postby Thommo » Jul 17, 2013 3:42 pm

Shrunk wrote:Sorry, are you agreeing that it is immoral to eat animals? If so, then you're in the clear. People who oppose the exploitation of animals for human need or pleasure in all circumstances can make a moral case against bestiality. For others, it's not so easy.


Only in those cases where the conditions the animals are raised in results in a clear net increase in harm. It's actually not clear that all farming techniques for raising animals does so. Clearly something like battery farming is morally despicable, but is raising free range cattle on the same level? If that biomass was present instead as wild animals subject to disease, no vetinary care and predation, would the level of animal suffering increase or decrease?
User avatar
Thommo
 
Posts: 27175

Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#24  Postby HomerJay » Jul 17, 2013 3:44 pm

Federico wrote: ReasonOrBust in his post (quote):

".. should be nipped in the butt;

If it's in the butt then there is no chance of procreation.

Anal and Oral should present no objections.
For me, the value of a climb is the sum of three inseparable elements, all equally important: aesthetics, history, and ethics

Walter Bonatti 1930-2011

"All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand" - Steven Wright
User avatar
HomerJay
 
Posts: 5868
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#25  Postby Shrunk » Jul 17, 2013 4:02 pm

chairman bill wrote:In many cases I'd say that there is a power imbalance, and that (at the very least) renders incest potentially abusive. I think it is right to draw a legal line in that case. Where I am a little more open to what is technically incest, is where a couple have been separated as children, then meet & get into a relationship (generally not knowing they are related). In such case, I think we need to provide genetic counselling, and I'd certainly be wary of any chance of them breeding (with all that implies for future generations), but none of this is down to morality as such.


I think there is a "power imbalance" in many, if not most, relationships. We don't declare those relationships immoral or illegal on that basis.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 56
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#26  Postby Shrunk » Jul 17, 2013 4:05 pm

CdesignProponentsist wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:I believe it is morally wrong to produce children through incest, other than that I got nothing.


Ah, yes. That's also a good response to Agrippina's argument, which only works if the sexual activity results in procreation.


I think you have a moral obligation that when you bring someone into the world that you afford them the best possible chance at a healthy happy life. Knowingly gambling with genetically loaded dice is not meeting that obligation in my opinion. Adopt if you want children, anything else would be purely selfish.


My post was carelessly worded. I meant that Agrippina's argument only works in that case, not your response.
Last edited by Shrunk on Jul 17, 2013 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 56
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#27  Postby natselrox » Jul 17, 2013 4:11 pm

Nothing.
When in perplexity, read on.

"A system that values obedience over curiosity isn’t education and it definitely isn’t science"
User avatar
natselrox
 
Posts: 10037
Age: 109
Male

India (in)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#28  Postby chairman bill » Jul 17, 2013 4:18 pm

Shrunk wrote:
chairman bill wrote:In many cases I'd say that there is a power imbalance, and that (at the very least) renders incest potentially abusive. I think it is right to draw a legal line in that case. Where I am a little more open to what is technically incest, is where a couple have been separated as children, then meet & get into a relationship (generally not knowing they are related). In such case, I think we need to provide genetic counselling, and I'd certainly be wary of any chance of them breeding (with all that implies for future generations), but none of this is down to morality as such.


I think there is a "power imbalance" in many, if not most, relationships. We don't declare those relationships immoral or illegal on that basis.


You don't think the power imbalance that exists between a parent & off-spring, or older brother/younger sister, is an issue?
“There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” Terry Pratchett
User avatar
chairman bill
RS Donator
 
Posts: 28319
Male

Country: UK: fucked since 2010
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#29  Postby Panderos » Jul 17, 2013 4:25 pm

I don't think 'morality' is a useful concept at all really, and we shouldn't even bother trying to determine if something is 'morally' wrong or not. What we can ask is

(a) In an ideal world where we can take every case individually and make an informed decision and there are no issues of enforcement, would we ever allow incest?
(b) In the real world, where we have practical enforcement problems, should we allow incest?

And we answer based on some kind of utilitarianism, in other words, what harm is done.

To (a) I say it's a clear 'yes'. For example, a brother and sister separated at birth who meet up in later life, fall in love and want to get married. One or both is infertile. There is no harm done by allowing them to marry/sleep together etc.

But we live in a world where any such law could not be perfectly enforced. A law letting said couple get married could also let others get married where harm is done, or have other negative consequences. So I think the only question worth asking is something like could we introduce any law that legalised incest that caused more good than harm, all things considered?
"A witty saying proves nothing." - Voltaire
User avatar
Panderos
 
Posts: 2971

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#30  Postby mattthomas » Jul 17, 2013 4:27 pm

chairman bill wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
chairman bill wrote:In many cases I'd say that there is a power imbalance, and that (at the very least) renders incest potentially abusive. I think it is right to draw a legal line in that case. Where I am a little more open to what is technically incest, is where a couple have been separated as children, then meet & get into a relationship (generally not knowing they are related). In such case, I think we need to provide genetic counselling, and I'd certainly be wary of any chance of them breeding (with all that implies for future generations), but none of this is down to morality as such.


I think there is a "power imbalance" in many, if not most, relationships. We don't declare those relationships immoral or illegal on that basis.


You don't think the power imbalance that exists between a parent & off-spring, or older brother/younger sister, is an issue?

Up to a certain age of development... yes, in every case. Beyond that? Yes, in some cases.
mattthomas
 
Posts: 5775
Age: 40

Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#31  Postby Shrunk » Jul 17, 2013 4:41 pm

chairman bill wrote:You don't think the power imbalance that exists between a parent & off-spring, or older brother/younger sister, is an issue?


When they're all adults? No.

Do you think a rich man should be allowed to marry a much poorer woman? That's another example of a "power imbalance". Though I guess it's not always clear in which direction:

Image
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 56
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#32  Postby chairman bill » Jul 17, 2013 4:53 pm

Shrunk wrote:
chairman bill wrote:You don't think the power imbalance that exists between a parent & off-spring, or older brother/younger sister, is an issue?


When they're all adults? No.


UK age of consent is 16. Now, I can't imagine having sex with a 16 year old girl, but it would be legal (usual consents etc), and there's no meaningful power issues involved. But if I were her father, I think there would be. Do we have a different age of consent in such cases? How on earth would we frame such a law? Maybe "You can have sex at 16, but if you want to fuck your dad, you'll have to wait 'til you're 18"?
“There is a rumour going around that I have found God. I think this is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.” Terry Pratchett
User avatar
chairman bill
RS Donator
 
Posts: 28319
Male

Country: UK: fucked since 2010
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#33  Postby Shrunk » Jul 17, 2013 5:02 pm

chairman bill wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
chairman bill wrote:You don't think the power imbalance that exists between a parent & off-spring, or older brother/younger sister, is an issue?


When they're all adults? No.


UK age of consent is 16. Now, I can't imagine having sex with a 16 year old girl, but it would be legal (usual consents etc), and there's no meaningful power issues involved. But if I were her father, I think there would be. Do we have a different age of consent in such cases? How on earth would we frame such a law? Maybe "You can have sex at 16, but if you want to fuck your dad, you'll have to wait 'til you're 18"?


I'm not saying a "power imbalance" does not exist. I'm saying we don't generally consider it a factor in deciding whether a sexual relationship is morally or legally permissable. We do to some extent in cases such as between a physician and a patient, or a teacher and a student. But that has to do with meeting the ethical expectations of the profession involved, not with the power imbalance within the relationship itself.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 56
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#34  Postby BlackBart » Jul 17, 2013 5:09 pm

Incest is fucking nepotism. :coffee:
You don't crucify people! Not on Good Friday! - Harold Shand
User avatar
BlackBart
 
Name: rotten bart
Posts: 12245
Age: 58
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#35  Postby Agrippina » Jul 17, 2013 5:14 pm

Personally I think it's a little off. I certainly couldn't imagine even being attracted to a brother-in-law, let alone a full brother, or dad. I like my partners to come from somewhere my family doesn't know. But that's just me. I think there's something a little weird about having sex with family members, or animals. Although I have heard girls say that they found their dads attractive in that way, I must admit I have heard it from that point of view.
Illegitimi non carborundum
User avatar
Agrippina
 
Posts: 36690
Age: 110
Female

Country: South Africa
South Africa (za)
Print view this post

Ads by Google


Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#36  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Jul 17, 2013 5:55 pm

Agrippina wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
CdesignProponentsist wrote:I believe it is morally wrong to produce children through incest, other than that I got nothing.


Ah, yes. That's also a good response to Agrippina's argument, which only works if the sexual activity results in procreation.


Exactly. I don't care who people sleep with, as long as they give some thought to the children they might produce. Again: Joffrey Lannister. :grin:

Edit to add: I'm thinking about sibling incest, more than parent and child. Of course there's the question of consent. If people are having consensual sex with other people, and there are no children involved, then I'm not interested.

:this:
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
User avatar
Thomas Eshuis
 
Name: Thomas Eshuis
Posts: 31088
Age: 31
Male

Country: Netherlands
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#37  Postby Emmeline » Jul 17, 2013 7:20 pm

Genuinely consenting adults can shag who they like as far as I'm concerned but they need to be very cautious about procreating due to risks.
Emmeline
 
Posts: 10401

Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#38  Postby Moridin » Jul 17, 2013 7:35 pm

Shrunk wrote:
Moridin wrote:
Shrunk wrote:Would you ask for the same degree of evidence if someone claimed consensual homosexual sex was harmless?


Those two claims are not on evidential par with each other for three reasons:

(1) There is a higher prior probability that incest would be associated with psychological harm than homosexual sex would be associated with psychological harm.


Umm, OK. So I assume you wil soon be providing all that evidence, rather than just asking us to take your word that it exists, right?

(2) We have baseline evidence that suggest that incest often lacks informed consent and is usually harmful. No such evidence exists for homosexual sex.


Irrelevant, since we are specifically talking about consensual sex.

3) We have positive evidence that homosexual sex is not psychologically harmful. This is because research has found that e.g. sexually active gay men do not differ from their heterosexual counterparts in terms of psychological adjustment.


Also irrelevant, since at the moment we still have no evidence that consensual incest between adults causes any harm. Just your assurance that this evidence exists.


You are not addressing any of my points. Instead you just deny the evidence. Therefore, it is quickly becoming unproductive to continue this conversation with you. Life is too short to argue with unreasonable people.
User avatar
Moridin
 
Posts: 810
Male

Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#39  Postby Shrunk » Jul 17, 2013 7:39 pm

Moridin wrote:You are not addressing any of my points. Instead you just deny the evidence. Therefore, it is quickly becoming unproductive to continue this conversation with you. Life is too short to argue with unreasonable people.


Which "evidence" am I denying? The "evidence" which you haven't presented yet? That "evidence"?
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 56
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: What's Morally Wrong with Incest?

#40  Postby Strontium Dog » Jul 17, 2013 8:10 pm

Agrippina wrote:Joffrey Lannister is a good excuse for not having incestuous relationships. I know it's just a story but if we look at what's happened with thoroughbred animals, dogs, cats and horses, and the prevalence of race-specific diseases among humans, variety is what will keep our species healthy. If we interbreed with close relatives for long enough, we're likely experience more of the type of thing that happens with dogs. My boxer for instance has a digestive problem that my vet tells me he's seeing more and more of among boxers, which he says is a result of the practice of too much in-breeding.


Marriage isn't just about children, though. At least, that's the message in all of the gay marriage threads.
Liberal.

STRONTIUM'S LAW: All online discussions about British politics, irrespective of the topic, will eventually turn to the Lib Dem tuition fee pledge
User avatar
Strontium Dog
Banned User
 
Name: Dan
Posts: 13820
Age: 42
Male

Country: UK: Free May 2010-15
England (eng)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Sociology

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 3 guests