Why can't we have a utopia?

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Why can't we have a utopia?

#1  Postby Reeve » Dec 13, 2012 6:07 pm

Probably no one will deny that modern society could be better. And most would probably concede that there are quite a few obvious ways in which society could be improved right now. Yet, it seems to be, that at the suggestion that human civilisation could enjoy some kind of abundant utopia, these claims are often mocked or outright dismissed as being naive, unrealistic and the proponent as merely being a dreamer that most likely doesn't understand "how the world actually" works.

My question is: Why exactly can't humans expect to live or enjoy a utopia? Why can a utopia never be achieved - perhaps even in principle?

And what's your evidence for your answers to those questions?

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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#2  Postby Animavore » Dec 13, 2012 6:10 pm

Oh we do. It's just you're not allowed into it and everything you see around you, the suffering, the misery, Justin Bieber... etc is there for the soul purpose of torturing you and you alone. In fact...


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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#3  Postby Animavore » Dec 13, 2012 6:12 pm

Serious answer.

[Reveal] Spoiler:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UOi6v5DD_1M[/youtube]
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#4  Postby Reeve » Dec 13, 2012 6:24 pm

:lol: Agent Smith makes lots of basic mistakes of biology in just 1 minute and 19 seconds...
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#5  Postby laklak » Dec 13, 2012 7:49 pm

Because the majority of humans are dicks.
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#6  Postby Sovereign » Dec 13, 2012 7:51 pm

Everyone's version of utopia is different so who's utopia would you implement?
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#7  Postby Doubtdispelled » Dec 13, 2012 7:53 pm

laklak wrote:Because the majority of humans are dicks.

:what: I thought it was around 50%?

Other than that, if we lived in a utopia we wouldn't know it was a utopia because it would be a utopia.......
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#8  Postby Reeve » Dec 13, 2012 8:04 pm

Sovereign wrote:Everyone's version of utopia is different so who's utopia would you implement?


A bit of inane question. :eh: I would be thinking along the lines of something like where everyone has access to what they need (including healthcare and education) and what you could reasonably expect to want i.e. maximised quality of life and happiness for the greatest number of people possible. I thought this would be simple stuff :lol:
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#9  Postby Reeve » Dec 13, 2012 8:07 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
laklak wrote:Because the majority of humans are dicks.

:what: I thought it was around 50%?

Other than that, if we lived in a utopia we wouldn't know it was a utopia because it would be a utopia.......


:think:

... what? :confused:
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#10  Postby Clive Durdle » Dec 13, 2012 8:17 pm

Isn't it an utopia?.......
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#11  Postby Doubtdispelled » Dec 13, 2012 8:27 pm

Reeve wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
laklak wrote:Because the majority of humans are dicks.

:what: I thought it was around 50%?

Other than that, if we lived in a utopia we wouldn't know it was a utopia because it would be a utopia.......


:think:

... what? :confused:

Simples really, Reeve. If you've never been unhappy, you won't understand what it is to be miserable. If you've never been in pain, you won't appreciate being without pain.

Ergo, if you always live in a utopia, you won't be able to recognise it as such because you won't know any different.
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#12  Postby Sovereign » Dec 13, 2012 8:30 pm

Reeve wrote:
Sovereign wrote:Everyone's version of utopia is different so who's utopia would you implement?


A bit of inane question. :eh: I would be thinking along the lines of something like where everyone has access to what they need (including healthcare and education) and what you could reasonably expect to want i.e. maximised quality of life and happiness for the greatest number of people possible. I thought this would be simple stuff :lol:


Not really. In your second to last sentence you state what I was aiming at. Not everyone will be happy with the "utopia" they're in. As a result those who are unhappy will want to be happy and then disrupt the "utopia". What maximizes happiness for one doesn't always maximize happiness for all.
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#13  Postby Reeve » Dec 13, 2012 8:31 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
Reeve wrote:
Doubtdispelled wrote:
laklak wrote:Because the majority of humans are dicks.

:what: I thought it was around 50%?

Other than that, if we lived in a utopia we wouldn't know it was a utopia because it would be a utopia.......


:think:

... what? :confused:

Simples really, Reeve. If you've never been unhappy, you won't understand what it is to be miserable. If you've never been in pain, you won't appreciate being without pain.

Ergo, if you always live in a utopia, you won't be able to recognise it as such because you won't know any different.


Are you working towards a point here? :ask:

By the way, I think that's nonsense: I don't need to experience trapping my leg in a bear trap to feel pity for someone who does.
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#14  Postby Doubtdispelled » Dec 13, 2012 8:33 pm

Clive Durdle wrote:Isn't it an utopia?.......
No, Clive.
http://www.wikihow.com/Use-%22A%22-and- ... -Correctly
When u makes the same sound as the y in you, or o makes the same sound as w in won, then a is used.

But I think they mean 'one' and not 'won'. :ask:
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#15  Postby Reeve » Dec 13, 2012 8:39 pm

Sovereign wrote:
Reeve wrote:
Sovereign wrote:Everyone's version of utopia is different so who's utopia would you implement?


A bit of inane question. :eh: I would be thinking along the lines of something like where everyone has access to what they need (including healthcare and education) and what you could reasonably expect to want i.e. maximised quality of life and happiness for the greatest number of people possible. I thought this would be simple stuff :lol:


Not really. In your second to last sentence you state what I was aiming at. Not everyone will be happy with the "utopia" they're in. As a result those who are unhappy will want to be happy and then disrupt the "utopia". What maximizes happiness for one doesn't always maximize happiness for all.


Maybe so but I think such people would be in an extreme minority. There's some basic things that I think everyone can agree on. For example there would be no argument that we'd be better off without things like this:

Image Image

And those are just two things I decided to google
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#16  Postby Reeve » Dec 13, 2012 8:44 pm

laklak wrote:Because the majority of humans are dicks.


Are you saying humans are innately "dicks" or would you concede that it may because of the current society that they are that way?

Also, what the heck do you mean? :lol:
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#17  Postby Doubtdispelled » Dec 13, 2012 8:45 pm

Reeve wrote:Are you working towards a point here?
Well, yeah. In short, there is no such thing as utopia. As sovereign says
Sovereign wrote:What maximizes happiness for one doesn't always maximize happiness for all.


Reeve wrote:By the way, I think that's nonsense: I don't need to experience trapping my leg in a bear trap to feel pity for someone who does.
And I'm not talking about feeling anything for anyone else. I'm talking about personal feelings.
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#18  Postby Reeve » Dec 13, 2012 8:47 pm

Doubtdispelled wrote:
Reeve wrote:Are you working towards a point here?
Well, yeah. In short, there is no such thing as utopia. As sovereign says
Sovereign wrote:What maximizes happiness for one doesn't always maximize happiness for all.


Reeve wrote:By the way, I think that's nonsense: I don't need to experience trapping my leg in a bear trap to feel pity for someone who does.
And I'm not talking about feeling anything for anyone else. I'm talking about personal feelings.


Do you really believe that if you were happy all the time, you wouldn't realise that you were happy? Happiness is going to feel good regardless of whether you've experienced something bad.

You might as well say that you can't appreciate anger if you've never been calm. :roll:
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#19  Postby Precambrian Rabbi » Dec 13, 2012 8:53 pm

I'm not sure I'm convinced by the "we all want different things" argument. Sure, an absolute utopia that was heavenly for every member is impossible, but I think we can arrive at sufficient consensus to create a loose target to get the ball rolling at; peace, universal access to sustenance, freedom from tyranny etc.

These things, it seems to me, are not beyond the capability of humankind, even if they are beyond its collective will.
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Re: Why can't we have a utopia?

#20  Postby Doubtdispelled » Dec 13, 2012 8:56 pm

Reeve wrote:Do you really believe that if you were happy all the time, you wouldn't realise that you were happy?
Yep.
Reeve wrote:You might as well say that you can't appreciate anger if you've never been calm.
Yep.
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