Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#41  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 6:16 am

Macdoc wrote:
tuco wrote:
@Macdoc Have you ever worked such job? Rhetorical. Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks, literally.

Yes ..and ??

Seems to me it frees corporations from paying staff the reason I refuse categorically to use self checkout.

Oregon has a law that does not allow people to self serve their own gas ....and I'm fine with that.

You seem to think that one kind of work is superior to another ...making a good burger is as meaningful as designing a skyscraper.....depends on what you bring to it....and if you parse that reference I'll be impressed.


Not necessarily free corporation from paying. We've been over this in Post-Work Society? thread. Even here I said
tuco wrote:Sure, there are questions ...

You said:
Macdoc wrote:makes me wonder about the pursuit of automation....people need jobs.


That you wonder will not stop automation. The only thing to do is to figure out answers to the mentioned questions, just like Bill Gates was trying in one of the links in the Post-works society thread. That is the way to go, that is how visionaries think.

I think one kind of work superior to another? Well, I think all work should be paid equally. How is that for superior? Burger flipper getting paid the same as an architect. How do you like that?
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#42  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 6:28 am

felltoearth wrote:
tuco wrote:Why was it a great job? When I was 16 I did 2 weeks in a factory, drilling holes into a metal L shaped piece and it took me about 4 hours to conclude it was shit, certainly not a thing I needed a brain for.

So you have different criteria for what a good job is. Good for you.
I wasn’t a line worker. I was a shipper receiver. Quite different. I worked pretty much alone, it was task oriented and self managing. It allowed me time to think about other stuff while I did menial things. And a pretty good paycheck for a 20 year old to boot.


Yes, we probably have a different idea what a great job should encompass like: enjoying the actual work and getting immaterial satisfaction from doing it, unlike being able to slack and getting decent pay for it. The point I was making is that if a chimpanzee could do the job, its a waste of human potential.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#43  Postby Spearthrower » May 26, 2019 8:22 am

Try and get a chimpanzee to do a job; you'll quickly see why all jobs are necessarily relevant to 'human potential'.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#44  Postby minininja » May 26, 2019 8:26 am

Macdoc wrote:
makes me wonder about the pursuit of automation....people need jobs.

For what reason do you think people need jobs?
[Disclaimer - if this is comes across like I think I know what I'm talking about, I want to make it clear that I don't. I'm just trying to get my thoughts down]
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#45  Postby Spearthrower » May 26, 2019 8:28 am

minininja wrote:
Macdoc wrote:
makes me wonder about the pursuit of automation....people need jobs.

For what reason do you think people need jobs?



I can't speak for anyone else, but I need a job to pay for that period of time before I am reborn into the cloud kingdom where I slurp eternally on YHWH's ineffable teat.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#46  Postby felltoearth » May 26, 2019 10:18 am

tuco wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
tuco wrote:Why was it a great job? When I was 16 I did 2 weeks in a factory, drilling holes into a metal L shaped piece and it took me about 4 hours to conclude it was shit, certainly not a thing I needed a brain for.

So you have different criteria for what a good job is. Good for you.
I wasn’t a line worker. I was a shipper receiver. Quite different. I worked pretty much alone, it was task oriented and self managing. It allowed me time to think about other stuff while I did menial things. And a pretty good paycheck for a 20 year old to boot.


Yes, we probably have a different idea what a great job should encompass like: enjoying the actual work and getting immaterial satisfaction from doing it, unlike being able to slack and getting decent pay for it. The point I was making is that if a chimpanzee could do the job, its a waste of human potential.

Slack? I didn’t slack. I got my work done. The immaterial satisfaction was being able to pay for music gear and a place to live for 14 months before I quit my job and went on the road. Being able to listen to music because I worked alone was another. It was a formative moment in time. Not recommended as a life long career though.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#47  Postby Macdoc » May 26, 2019 11:00 am

Burger flipper getting paid the same as an architect. How do you like that?


You miss the point entirely ...never once said equal pay but since you missed the reference I'll just :popcorn:
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#48  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 11:04 am

Remember this: I do nothing at work all day - http://www.rationalskepticism.org/gener ... 53012.html ? Apparently, Garm also got his work done. On my last job when I had nothing to do I went home and the hours missing I took out of my holiday allowance simply because I was not going to pretend to be working when I was not. I am not saying you were doing it but .. we have different ideas when it comes to what constitutes a great job. After all, you said yourself it was great for a temporary job. Some people do it all their lives. My coworkers in the factory I mentioned were doing it for 25 years while I was going nuts after one day.

Automation will not rob humans of voluntary, let's not argue that a factory job is voluntary because one voluntarily agrees to do it, labor. If someone likes to work with wood, for example, one does not have to work in a factory cutting logs into standard sizes all day, for example. One can work on own projects, doing stuff with wood s/he actually likes to do, unlike doing it just for a paycheck.

So the loss of access to labor due to automation I do not see as a problem. The problem is the loss of income and for some too much of free, unorganized, time. All I am saying, let's talk about this, let's talk about how to cope with it. Nothing can stop businesses from automation simply because businesses exist to generate profit and if robots will generate more income than humans, humans will be replaced. Been like that since first industrial revolution. Wondering .. people need jobs .. no, people need income and some people need to do some work, either organized or on their own.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#49  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 11:10 am

Macdoc wrote:
Burger flipper getting paid the same as an architect. How do you like that?


You miss the point entirely ...never once said equal pay but since you missed the reference I'll just :popcorn:


What point? You said:

Macdoc wrote:

You seem to think that one kind of work is superior to another ...making a good burger is as meaningful as designing a skyscraper.....depends on what you bring to it....and if you parse that reference I'll be impressed.


and I said I do not think that at all. How do you, or anyone else, determine one kind of work is superior to another? The only thing we can measure is the salary. I am for equal salary. I think all jobs are equal when it comes to merit and to what one deserves for doing them.

You, on the other hand, seem to have no problem with one job being superior to another in terms of the only measurable value which is salary. Or am I wrong?
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#50  Postby felltoearth » May 26, 2019 11:42 am

Oh I see. You want to be paid for work that is meaningful to you. I’m sure this is something everyone can agree on. Tuco world, here I come!
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#51  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 12:12 pm

What? :)

The debate started with Macdoc wondering about automation, saying that people need jobs. To that, I said that automation frees people from menial and mundane tasks. Tasks nor you nor Macdoc were willing to do your whole life.

Honestly, I do not see why are you disagreeing with what I said. If you were moving boxes from one place to another your whole life, found it a great job, then called my "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks, literally." bullshit, because it would not free you from anything as you love moving boxes from one place to another, then I would have to reconsider. But that is not so and both of you freed yourself from doing such stuff not only because it was a shit job but also because it was shit pay.

What do you want to debate? That perhaps some people love moving boxes from one place to another and would not do anything else even if they had the opportunity? This is the point you are making? I do not understand.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#52  Postby felltoearth » May 26, 2019 12:42 pm

There are multiple threads intertwined in the conversation so maybe I should break it down.

1. Jobs may be menial but it doesn’t mean they aren’t worth doing as a human being if you are getting paid to do so especially if they are a means to an end and not a means in and of themselves. I’ve worked at so many jobs and different kinds of jobs. I have found that experience formative and informative while at the time I may not have seen it. Could be a good topic for a thread.
2. Automation of menial tasks to “free up” humans for more worthy pursuits. There is so much value judgement loaded into this statement that I think it is where things started to go off the rails. Who decides what a worthy pursuit is? Why should you get paid by someone else for something you deem worthy of your time? Which leads to...
3. Post work society and Universal Basic Income. It’ll be a long time before we see any of this implemented as the powers that be love their wage slaves. UBI is a great ideal and I support it, but Capitalism needs a rework in its current form before anything moves towards that. I’m more pragmatic in that sense.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#53  Postby Hermit » May 26, 2019 12:58 pm

tuco wrote:If you were moving boxes from one place to another your whole life, found it a great job, then called my "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks, literally." bullshit, because it would not free you from anything as you love moving boxes from one place to another, then I would have to reconsider. But that is not so and both of you freed yourself from doing such stuff not only because it was a shit job but also because it was shit pay.

Ford's delivery robot and associated driverless vehicle is not a menial and mundane task, nor is it necessarily a shit job for shit pay. I have done this for most of my working life. The job involves rather more than picking up a carton, taking it elsewhere, and putting it down. Basically, a production unit is given an area to service and a volume of goods to distribute (and collect later in the day), which varies from day to day. You need to organise this to make it manageable. Granted, in my case the freight could be a pallet (or 14), a crate, a jiffy bag, or whatever, delivered to a residential property, a clothing shop in a mall, the receiving dock of a factory, a mine site, a particular person in an office on the 27th floor, but the underlying principle is the same. I was given the task of organising how to do the day's work any way as I saw fit. There were easy days, and there were - shall we say - challenging ones. The only requirement was that the transport company's customer service department did not get flooded with complaints from people in the area I serviced. I was paid well enough to buy a little terrace house and pay the mortgage off in under ten years. And yes, I enjoyed doing this kind of work. The combination of having to physically exert myself, laying out a plan to handle the workload and changing it on the fly when things do not pan out as expected, suited me.

The Ford clip illustrates automation of my job in its embryonic stage. One day robots will become good enough to do my job as well as I have managed. Not long after that, it will do it better and more cheaply than that.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#54  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 1:21 pm

felltoearth wrote:There are multiple threads intertwined in the conversation so maybe I should break it down.

1. Jobs may be menial but it doesn’t mean they aren’t worth doing as a human being if you are getting paid to do so especially if they are a means to an end and not a means in and of themselves. I’ve worked at so many jobs and different kinds of jobs. I have found that experience formative and informative while at the time I may not have seen it. Could be a good topic for a thread.
2. Automation of menial tasks to “free up” humans for more worthy pursuits. There is so much value judgement loaded into this statement that I think it is where things started to go off the rails. Who decides what a worthy pursuit is? Why should you get paid by someone else for something you deem worthy of your time? Which leads to...
3. Post work society and Universal Basic Income. It’ll be a long time before we see any of this implemented as the powers that be love their wage slaves. UBI is a great ideal and I support it, but Capitalism needs a rework in its current form before anything moves towards that. I’m more pragmatic in that sense.


Its some kind of logical fallacy I am sure but I will call it .. you are imagining things. I said:

tuco wrote:@Macdoc Have you ever worked such job? Rhetorical. Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks, literally.

Sure, there are questions like: what to do with the people who make living doing such tasks? where do they get income from? who is gonna pay for it? ... but conceptually, freeing oneself from such labor opens up many possibilities like using the brain for creativity, critical thinking or education and using energy for stuff like beekeeping or getting involved in communities or sharing own wisdom and experiences with others. Besides "mirror neurons" are far from being mechanized as far as I know.

It is the way to go. Automation allows humans to realize their potential. The only question is how we handle it.


"Possibilities" and "potential".

It's you who is assigning value-based judgments, not me. I never said "worthy", you did. Just like I have never said "superior" but Macdoc did.

And the same with "frees people from". It does not mean nor implies that what were people doing, before freed from, was "unworthy" or "inferior". Perhaps in your mind it does but that is why I am saying. It's not me but you who passes value-based judgments here.

I simply state, the obvious as usual :), that we humans have more potential, with regards to our intellectual capabilities, than to move boxes around 1/3 of day and we can realize such potential if we let robots do menial and mundane tasks for us because they can do it very well and efficiently. Unlike tasks involving empathy for example.

You don't have to agree. Perhaps humans moving boxes from one place to another is an efficient use of resources, humans have to eat and stuff, to you. There is no way for me to convince you otherwise. However, I think you are making things up for reasons I am not going to debate.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#55  Postby Spearthrower » May 26, 2019 1:27 pm

... its a waste of human potential.


Ergo, a job not worthy of a human.

You may not have used the word 'worthy', but that doesn't mean you didn't use synonymous language.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#56  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 1:39 pm

Hermit wrote:
tuco wrote:If you were moving boxes from one place to another your whole life, found it a great job, then called my "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks, literally." bullshit, because it would not free you from anything as you love moving boxes from one place to another, then I would have to reconsider. But that is not so and both of you freed yourself from doing such stuff not only because it was a shit job but also because it was shit pay.

Ford's delivery robot and associated driverless vehicle is not a menial and mundane task, nor is it necessarily a shit job for shit pay. I have done this for most of my working life. The job involves rather more than picking up a carton, taking it elsewhere, and putting it down. Basically, a production unit is given an area to service and a volume of goods to distribute (and collect later in the day), which varies from day to day. You need to organise this to make it manageable. Granted, in my case the freight could be a pallet (or 14), a crate, a jiffy bag, or whatever, delivered to a residential property, a clothing shop in a mall, the receiving dock of a factory, a mine site, a particular person in an office on the 27th floor, but the underlying principle is the same. I was given the task of organising how to do the day's work any way as I saw fit. There were easy days, and there were - shall we say - challenging ones. The only requirement was that the transport company's customer service department did not get flooded with complaints from people in the area I serviced. I was paid well enough to buy a little terrace house and pay the mortgage off in under ten years. And yes, I enjoyed doing this kind of work. The combination of having to physically exert myself, laying out a plan to handle the workload and changing it on the fly when things do not pan out as expected, suited me.

The Ford clip illustrates automation of my job in its embryonic stage. One day robots will become good enough to do my job as well as I have managed. Not long after that, it will do it better and more cheaply than that.


Good for you. Every time I see UPS or DHL delivery drivers they seem to be under a lot of stress and in a hurry. I often see them speeding and breaking other traffic rules. Perhaps they do not manage as well as you did or perhaps they don't have the same boss you did. Either way, indeed, one day robots will take over such jobs so instead of wondering .. people need jobs .. maybe wondering .. what to do with people who lost their job to such robots .. would be more rational. What do you think?
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#57  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 1:44 pm

Amazon warehouse employees speak out about the 'brutal' reality of working during the holidays, when 60-hour weeks are mandatory and ambulance calls are common - https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon- ... eak-2019-2

'We are not robots': Amazon warehouse employees push to unionize - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -minnesota

etc

This is common knowledge, right?
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#58  Postby felltoearth » May 26, 2019 1:56 pm

tuco wrote:
Perhaps humans moving boxes from one place to another is an efficient use of resources, humans have to eat and stuff, to you. There is no way for me to convince you otherwise. However, I think you are making things up for reasons I am not going to debate.

Ironic that you accuse Macdoc and myself of loading stuff in into comments that aren’t there as this has pretty much been your MO on every one of my comments. You assumed I was slacking at my job, for example. And here you are assuming that I think its more “efficient” for humans to move boxes from one place to another. Another value judgement. Efficient by whose measure? An accountant? A business model? A national macro-economic outlook? An international outlook?
You had the privilege of walking away from a job you thought menial (a word whose very definition contains the word “unworthy”.) Well good for you. There are many that don’t have that option. A robot doing their work isn’t going to help them.
The real issue is, would you accept that someone got paid for doing absolutely nothing, contributing nothing, or being productive in a way you don’t value, i.e. beneath someone’s potential. What if they just want to write about Paris Hilton all day. Or do a PhD in the study of Paris Hilton? Would that be a problem in Tuco’s World™?
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#59  Postby felltoearth » May 26, 2019 2:00 pm

tuco wrote:Amazon warehouse employees speak out about the 'brutal' reality of working during the holidays, when 60-hour weeks are mandatory and ambulance calls are common - https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon- ... eak-2019-2

'We are not robots': Amazon warehouse employees push to unionize - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -minnesota

etc

This is common knowledge, right?

This is a red herring. Where did I talk about my warehouse job being poorly paying with bad working conditions? Oh, I didn’t. In fact I talked about the exact opposite. And the discussion was about “menial” jobs, not poorly paying ones. Talk about loading stuff into an argument.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#60  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 2:10 pm

What about Paris Hilton? :) I am genuinely curious why some people care about her, and other celebrity gossips. Why tabloids are so popular. Yes, I think it's PhD material - social phenomena -, however, I do not have the proper educational background to write it so I just construct hypothesis with what I've got. Perhaps if I would not need to work for a paycheck and could educate myself freely, it would be different, but it's not gonna happen in my lifetime I guess.

What is your problem again, that you want to engage me? Why me, why not someone else? I do not quite understand.
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