Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#61  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 2:15 pm

felltoearth wrote:
tuco wrote:Amazon warehouse employees speak out about the 'brutal' reality of working during the holidays, when 60-hour weeks are mandatory and ambulance calls are common - https://www.businessinsider.com/amazon- ... eak-2019-2

'We are not robots': Amazon warehouse employees push to unionize - https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... -minnesota

etc

This is common knowledge, right?

This is a red herring. Where did I talk about my warehouse job being poorly paying with bad working conditions? Oh, I didn’t. In fact I talked about the exact opposite. And the discussion was about “menial” jobs, not poorly paying ones. Talk about loading stuff into an argument.


Seems to me the workers in question would not mind being freed from their job, granted they had a possibility to do so and/or another source of income. But I guess they don't and voluntarily keep working for Amazon.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#62  Postby Keep It Real » May 26, 2019 2:20 pm

felltoearth wrote:
3. Post work society and Universal Basic Income. It’ll be a long time before we see any of this implemented as the powers that be love their wage slaves. UBI is a great ideal and I support it, but Capitalism needs a rework in its current form before anything moves towards that. I’m more pragmatic in that sense.


I hear on the grapevine that UK Labour are to include trialling some form of UBI in 3 major cities as a component of their election manifesto. Perhaps not suuuuuuch a distant dream then.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#63  Postby Hermit » May 26, 2019 2:35 pm

tuco wrote:
Hermit wrote:
tuco wrote:If you were moving boxes from one place to another your whole life, found it a great job, then called my "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks, literally." bullshit, because it would not free you from anything as you love moving boxes from one place to another, then I would have to reconsider. But that is not so and both of you freed yourself from doing such stuff not only because it was a shit job but also because it was shit pay.

Ford's delivery robot and associated driverless vehicle is not a menial and mundane task, nor is it necessarily a shit job for shit pay. I have done this for most of my working life. The job involves rather more than picking up a carton, taking it elsewhere, and putting it down. Basically, a production unit is given an area to service and a volume of goods to distribute (and collect later in the day), which varies from day to day. You need to organise this to make it manageable. Granted, in my case the freight could be a pallet (or 14), a crate, a jiffy bag, or whatever, delivered to a residential property, a clothing shop in a mall, the receiving dock of a factory, a mine site, a particular person in an office on the 27th floor, but the underlying principle is the same. I was given the task of organising how to do the day's work any way as I saw fit. There were easy days, and there were - shall we say - challenging ones. The only requirement was that the transport company's customer service department did not get flooded with complaints from people in the area I serviced. I was paid well enough to buy a little terrace house and pay the mortgage off in under ten years. And yes, I enjoyed doing this kind of work. The combination of having to physically exert myself, laying out a plan to handle the workload and changing it on the fly when things do not pan out as expected, suited me.

The Ford clip illustrates automation of my job in its embryonic stage. One day robots will become good enough to do my job as well as I have managed. Not long after that, it will do it better and more cheaply than that.

Good for you. Every time I see UPS or DHL delivery drivers they seem to be under a lot of stress and in a hurry. I often see them speeding and breaking other traffic rules. Perhaps they do not manage as well as you did or perhaps they don't have the same boss you did. Either way, indeed, one day robots will take over such jobs so instead of wondering .. people need jobs .. maybe wondering .. what to do with people who lost their job to such robots .. would be more rational. What do you think?

I think you just moved the goalposts. In reply to Macdoc's clip about the delivery robot and associated driverless vehicle you said: "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks". I explained how delivering boxes is neither mundane nor menial. Now you have switched to "delivery drivers they seem to be under a lot of stress and in a hurry". In my opinion moving goal posts is not conducive to leading to constructive discussions. What do you think?
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#64  Postby Macdoc » May 26, 2019 3:24 pm

The combination of having to physically exert myself, laying out a plan to handle the workload and changing it on the fly when things do not pan out as expected, suited me.


My son also enjoys that work. I didn't mind factory work at International Nickel for the summers tho the safety factors were a bit dodgy. Doing any job well and getting reasonable pay is very satisfying and some like my son are not ambitious for corporate climbing .....my daughter on the other hand is a very well paid knowledge worker but even she opted for a lower salary ( she'd reached her $100k salary before 30 goal) for more flexibility, amazing benefit package in the university system.

I had to explain to one of my workers long ago ....short version
explained that he could go home after a shift and forget all about his job ...go have fun, plan weekends, leave for a different job and got reasonable pay for 8 hours mostly physical work.

I then explained that the higher income I got as the owner came with a transport truck load of responsibilities, to other staff, creditors, clients, banks etc etc ad nauseum...

He said

I don't EVER want your fucking job :D

Very often it's the level of responsibility or risk that dictates the level of pay ....airline pilots, doctors, firefighters, teachers, justices, astronauts ....there is quite a raft ...

However there are far too many where income does not reflect responsibility or risk - instead represents predation and/or captive leverage. That's another discussion tho.

It's what a person brings to the work that's important .....work ethic....something that we more often see in older workers than in younger workers.
Lots of people want to go home at the end of a work period and forget about what they do for a living and get on with living.
That's not me but I understand it and respect it.
I do NOT like those workers ( often immigrants ) being exploited by corporations ( think Amazon and many others ) for additional profit.

I admire corporations/leaders like Kellog during the Great Depression who used their corporate power to protect their workers and company town. Japan at one time offered lifetime employment and low gap between line workers and managers unlike the obscenity that exists now.

1930s

W.K. Kellogg made an unprecedented move as the United States sank into the Great Depression. Instead of cutting back, he doubled his advertising spending - and Kellogg cereal sales increased. In response to the hard times created by the Depression, Mr. Kellogg reduced the hours of the three plant shifts and created a fourth shift, spreading the payroll among more workers. Others earned their paychecks by developing a 10-acre park on the Battle Creek plant grounds. Declaring "I'll invest my money in people," in 1930, Mr. Kellogg founded the W.K. Kellogg Foundation. He also continued to invest resources into developing the nutritional quality of Kellogg's products. Kellogg expansion continued with a new plant in Manchester, England. Kellogg's® Pep™, became the first cereal fortified with vitamins through the "spray" method. Kellogg also brought new partnerships by sponsoring "The Singing Lady - Irene Wicker," the nation's first radio network program for children, and the "Howie Wing" radio show, based on the adventures of a young aviator. Adm. Richard E. Byrd's expedition to the South Pole was equipped with a two-year supply of Kellogg cereals.

http://www.kellogghistory.com/history.html

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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#65  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 3:27 pm

@Hermit

Are you saying that if the vid in question was about robots in Amazon warehouses (I used to work such job btw but they wanted me to do overtimes so I quit because I have stuff to do in my life like posting on this board :) you would not have a problem with "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks" statement?

That is a general statement about automation, in reaction to "makes me wonder about the pursuit of automation....people need jobs.", which is also a general statement. I mean, sure you .. explained .. to me how delivery is not mundane nor menial for you, though it would still probably be mundane and menial to me especially with current tools like GPS and computers where delivery vans get loaded and scheduled in depots with little input from driver/delivery worker who just drives around predetermined route and takes packages out of the van in predetermined order with little room for using intellectual potential of average human brain, but if this is the way you want to have a debate with me, I am not interested.

OK delivery is not a mundane and menial task. I apologize for making a false statement. I also hope you are happy now.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#66  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 3:56 pm

Posted some time ago in the Video-Games thread:

How Fortnite’s success led to months of intense crunch at Epic Games - https://www.polygon.com/2019/4/23/18507 ... epic-games

very similar problems like at Amazon but nobody talks about robots. I guess it's because Amazon workers are more creative and Fortnite developers forgot to mention it. Or just coincidence or I dunno.

Why are we spending time and energy debating whether "mundane and menial" is a thing or not and whether humans have wastly more potential than doing "mundane and menial"? Because someone likes to flip burgers and robots will take it away for her/him?

FLIP THE FUCKING BURGERS AT HOME FFS IF THAT IS SOMETHING YOU CANNOT LIVE WITHOUT!

Alternatively do this: https://www.google.com/search?q=work+si ... e&ie=UTF-8 ;)
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#67  Postby Hermit » May 26, 2019 4:13 pm

tuco wrote:Why are we spending time and energy debating whether "mundane and menial" is a thing or not

Because you brought the thing up in post #36, like so: "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks, literally."

Truth is that computerisation frees people up from tasks that are not menial as well. In the past few years it has proven itself faster and more accurate in diagnosing some medical conditions, relegating some doctors to the role of mere technicians and freeing others from their jobs. There is an irony in that when viewed in comparison to your statement.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#68  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 4:25 pm

Yes, I did. But why are you debating it? Because you disagree with it? Disagree with what exactly? If I said: "Automation will take over menial and mundane tasks" would you still disagree? No. So what do you disagree with? Frees people? Why do you disagree with it? Because it does not free anyone, menial and mundane is what people love to do 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, especially when they can do it to make profits for someone else, or something. What the actual fuck?

btw

'Robot' was first applied as a term for artificial automata in the 1920 play R.U.R. by the Czech writer, Karel Čapek. However, Josef Čapek was named by his brother Karel as the true inventor of the term robot.[8][9] The word 'robot' itself was not new, having been in the Slavic language as robota (forced laborer), a term which classified those peasants obligated to compulsory service under the feudal system (see: Robot Patent).[42][43] Čapek's fictional story postulated the technological creation of artificial human bodies without souls, and the old theme of the feudal robota class eloquently fit the imagination of a new class of manufactured, artificial workers.
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot#Ori ... rm_'robot'
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#69  Postby laklak » May 26, 2019 4:32 pm

There are some people for whom burger flipping is the pinnacle of achievement. But there's burger flipping and then there's burger flipping. There's the guy at Micky Ds, and there's the white hatted chef in the open kitchen at Patrick's in downtown Sarasota. One's a menial worker and the other is an artiste.

Maybe it's price? You could feed an entire poverty stricken family at Micky D's for the cost of one of Patrick's wagyu and black truffle burgers. Including fried apple pies and an ice cream sundae.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#70  Postby Svartalf » May 26, 2019 5:04 pm

wagyu and truffle, makes me feel bad I'm too poor to afford it :(
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#71  Postby Hermit » May 26, 2019 5:49 pm

tuco wrote:Yes, I did. But why are you debating it? Because you disagree with it? Disagree with what exactly?

Since you're a bit slow on the uptake: You replied to Macdoc's post, which featured the automation of box deliveries, by saying that "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks, literally." I explained to you that the job of delivering boxes is not as menial and mundane as you imagine. Got it now, or do you want me to add some pictures to raise your comprehension capacity from its torpor?
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#72  Postby Svartalf » May 26, 2019 6:07 pm

automation should free people FROM menial and mundane tasks, not FOR such...
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#73  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 6:15 pm

Hermit wrote:
tuco wrote:Yes, I did. But why are you debating it? Because you disagree with it? Disagree with what exactly?

Since you're a bit slow on the uptake: You replied to Macdoc's post, which featured the automation of box deliveries, by saying that "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks, literally." I explained to you that the job of delivering boxes is not as menial and mundane as you imagine. Got it now, or do you want me to add some pictures to raise your comprehension capacity from its torpor?


tuco wrote:@Hermit

Are you saying that if the vid in question was about robots in Amazon warehouses (I used to work such job btw but they wanted me to do overtimes so I quit because I have stuff to do in my life like posting on this board :) you would not have a problem with "Automation frees people for menial and mundane tasks" statement?

That is a general statement about automation, in reaction to "makes me wonder about the pursuit of automation....people need jobs.", which is also a general statement. I mean, sure you .. explained .. to me how delivery is not mundane nor menial for you, though it would still probably be mundane and menial to me especially with current tools like GPS and computers where delivery vans get loaded and scheduled in depots with little input from driver/delivery worker who just drives around predetermined route and takes packages out of the van in predetermined order with little room for using intellectual potential of average human brain, but if this is the way you want to have a debate with me, I am not interested.

OK delivery is not a mundane and menial task. I apologize for making a false statement. I also hope you are happy now.


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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#74  Postby felltoearth » May 26, 2019 6:16 pm

Keep It Real wrote:
felltoearth wrote:
3. Post work society and Universal Basic Income. It’ll be a long time before we see any of this implemented as the powers that be love their wage slaves. UBI is a great ideal and I support it, but Capitalism needs a rework in its current form before anything moves towards that. I’m more pragmatic in that sense.


I hear on the grapevine that UK Labour are to include trialling some form of UBI in 3 major cities as a component of their election manifesto. Perhaps not suuuuuuch a distant dream then.

We started a pilot project here that was immediately cancelled by the next government. People don’t understand enough of what UBI means yet to make it sustainable. Other things will have to change before this is widely accepted and not precarious
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#75  Postby tuco » May 26, 2019 6:18 pm

Svartalf wrote:automation should free people FROM menial and mundane tasks, not FOR such...


Indeed, I tend to mix up these two a lot and spellcheck does not help. Luckily I have you :)
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#76  Postby Svartalf » May 26, 2019 6:26 pm

well, must admit it shocked me somewhat.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#77  Postby Spearthrower » May 26, 2019 9:28 pm

tuco wrote:
Consider yourself to be on the list.



I'm unfortunately (I'm sure :) ) unaware of tuco's list.

Would someone like to explain it for me, please?

Is it a list of people he ignores?
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#78  Postby LucidFlight » May 26, 2019 9:39 pm

OFFICIAL MEMBER: QUANTUM CONSTRUCTOR CONSCIOUSNESS QUALIA KOALA COLLECTIVE.
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#79  Postby Spearthrower » May 26, 2019 9:40 pm

He's got all the piano moves!
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Re: Boston Dynamics warehouse robot

#80  Postby felltoearth » May 26, 2019 10:03 pm

LucidFlight wrote:
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