Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#21  Postby byofrcs » Apr 22, 2011 4:14 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
byofrcs wrote:This only suggests commonality of mentality. Both humans and monkeys are primates and we're genetically similar including brain structures. (Quoting Wikipedia) - Humans and closely related primates are usually trichromats, as are some of the females of most species of New World monkeys.

Monkey see, monkey do. We aren't that special.


I wouldn't be opposed to keeping some of these modern artists in zoos now that you mention it :think:


Factory is the word you're after - you put artists in a factory. It increases the list prices of their works and the factory makes a cut. No matter what you do the more attention you attract to the artist then the greater the perceived value of their work.

It isn't rational - it is economics of supply and demand. Art is the bleeding edge of hard core capitalism.
In America the battle is between common cents distorted by profits and common sense distorted by prophets.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#22  Postby def » Apr 22, 2011 4:39 pm

AndreD wrote:The urinal one you posted is a good example - it isn't art unless accompanied by an explanation written by a complete wanker or by its presence in an art museum. Without those things it's just something you piss into.

It's really interesting point, but Duchamp is one of those artists that if you look at the whole of his career, the urinal really makes sense. He produced some truly beautiful art. Sure, it requires an explanation, or, in better terms, a context. But it's a lot like the fact that Einstein was bad in school. Just because some kid was bad in school, that doesn't make them an Einstein. And so, a 'simple' art piece sometimes becomes more with intent. It's a fucked up thing, but when you see Duchamp's Woman Descending a Staircase, or Portfolio in a Box, it makes Fountain a lot more interesting.

I love visceral art, particularly in music, but sometimes I love art that doesn't exist in a vacuum.

The original post was about abstract expressionism, which is supposed to be visceral (isn't it?) so maybe this is a digression. Fountain wasn't meant to be visceral.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#23  Postby Mike_L » Apr 22, 2011 5:06 pm

Thanks for this Tyrannical! I have a recurring argument with a self-proclaimed art expert who heaps scorn upon the work of Boris Vallejo while singing the praises of abstract paintings. I'll be forwarding him the article link! :smile:
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#24  Postby michael^3 » Apr 22, 2011 5:12 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Here is an online quiz you can take too.
http://reverent.org/an_artist_or_an_ape.html


Hah! I scored 100% on that quiz

[edit] ... just like everybody else...
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#25  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 5:25 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art :lol:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/psyched/201103/my-monkey-could-have-painted-really



Here is an online quiz you can take too.
http://reverent.org/an_artist_or_an_ape.html



I got one wrong.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#26  Postby tuco » Apr 22, 2011 5:26 pm

Mr.Samsa wrote:Admittedly, a lot of "abstract" art is shit and probably made just because the artist wasn't very good at anything else, but part of the reason why abstract art seems silly is because the average person thinks art is about painting pretty flowers or odd looking women who you can't tell if they're smiling or not. For example, these are excellent pieces of art:

Image



One is just a canvas almost maniacally spattered with paint, and the other is literally just a urinal with the signature "R.Mutt" on it. The point being that art is more than just aesthetics, in Pollock's piece it's about the experience - being faced with the massive canvases that he used is like being immersed in a landscape, the "naturalistic" aspect of art and his love of accidents in his work was supposed to move away from the rigid and almost tedious forms of art that preceded it.

[snip]



Not to argue or anything, just:

Between 1943 and 1952, Jackson Pollock created patterns by dripping paint onto horizontal canvases. In 1999 the authors identified the patterns as fractal. Ending 50 years of debate over the content of his paintings, the results raised the more general question of how a human being could create fractals. The authors, by analyzing film that recorded the evolution of Pollock's patterns as a function of time, show that the fractals resulted from a systematic construction process involving multiple layers of painted patterns. These results are interpreted within the context of recent visual perception studies of fractal patterns. - http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs ... 0252940603
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#27  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 5:29 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
AndreD wrote:If I'm reading the article correctly, they didn't test them on identifying which was the chimpanzee's painting - but instead asked which of the two they preferred. I suppose a reason is that this ultra modern art pretty much all looks the same and a lot of it is indistinguishable from random brushstrokes like those a chimp or young child would make. It's not really my cup of tea.


I beleive they asked them both, identification and preference.

Though if a monkey can make something indistinguishable from modern art, that implies that modern art simply isn't art. As everyone knows that humans are the only primates that create art :whistle:


You can't support either of these assertions.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#28  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 5:39 pm

Tyrannical wrote:
Mr.Samsa wrote:Admittedly, a lot of "abstract" art is shit and probably made just because the artist wasn't very good at anything else, but part of the reason why abstract art seems silly is because the average person thinks art is about painting pretty flowers or odd looking women who you can't tell if they're smiling or not. For example, these are excellent pieces of art:


The average person is not mentally ill, that gullible, has better taste then a monkey, and isn't afraid to yell bull shit when they see it.



Conflating a lot of distinct characteristics here, none of which are dependent on, or inherently coupled with, the others.

Average people create and buy average art. AKA worthless crap. But hey, it makes them happy. And the average person tends to go with what they like--which is fine for interior decoration, because that is all the average person buying or making art is doing anyway. Average people don't recognize true shit when they see it, they just call what they don't like and don't understand shit. They are average after all, and one can't expect expertise or brilliance from the average.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#29  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 5:50 pm

In order to appreciate and "get" abstract art a person has to go beyond being average and limiting oneself to the idea that art has to be pleasing or understandable and subjective. A person has to be cognitively advanced from the average.

Abstract art is a breaking away from expectations and dictates, it is an effort to explore technique or represent concepts and/or emotion or stir emotion; emotion and/or concepts being the subject rather than a subject/object being the subject.

IMO it is the average person who can only appreciate representational/subjective art because it is familiar and doesn't require much by the way of thought. But hey, to each their own.

I am glad I'm not average.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#30  Postby tuco » Apr 22, 2011 6:04 pm

I wonder if for example mathematical expression of General relativity is abstract, art.

edit: Though, average student should be able to tell the difference between monkey math and, well, monkey math :)
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#31  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 6:09 pm

cavarka9 wrote:I knew it, I knew it.Modern abstract art is also pseudoart.Perhaps, there should be a necessary basic test on artists being able to draw something clear first, and only later the other kinds should be judged. But, with technology and 3d printing, art of painting, drawing and sculpture will be history. :confused:



First, Picasso could draw and did so before he started on cubism. Van Gogh could draw too. Being able to draw well is a tool, but if that is all a person can bring to a painting then one is more draftsman than artist. One builds the tool kit (drawing skill, color theory, composition and design, mastery over media), and then one builds things with it. A hammer can be used to do an average task like nail a crap average painting to a wall, and it can be used to make a musical instrument from a steel drum.


Modern or abstract art is in no way pseudo art. Making such a declaration is more an indication that one has only psuedo-knowledge about art in general. Average people typically fit the category.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#32  Postby tuco » Apr 22, 2011 6:14 pm

There is also a position that the so-called "art" is a social construct and does not exist in reality. In this sense, there is no art and pseudo-art, but only those who like to distinguish them as such.

Maybe a question to ask would be: What is the point of labeling something as art, pseudo-art respectively? What is it for?

But for that we would have to ask the first cavewo/man who made that distinction I guess, distinction between normal and abnormal.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#33  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 6:15 pm

AndreD wrote:Samsa, I agree that art is more than just visual aesthetics, it should evoke emotion too. However, the problem with a lot of abstract art is that it has to be explained in order to appreciate it, and for me that indicates it has little intrinsic worth.
The urinal one you posted is a good example - it isn't art unless accompanied by an explanation written by a complete wanker or by its presence in an art museum. Without those things it's just something you piss into.



You can't say that the need for information so to understand and maybe appreciate--or not appreciate--a thing means the thing has no worth. It just means there is a need for information and education. How can you competently judge a thing if you remain ignorant of it? To reject the opportunity of being educated when it presents is, IMO, intellectual laziness. And quite frankly, opinions formed by ignorance can be disregarded as worthless.

Also, that thing that is pissed in---was designed. It didn't occur naturally. A human thought about purpose, and materials, and construction and made more than just a utilitarian object to collect piss, aesthetics too were applied. Why, why make a urinal look good when people are just going to piss in it?
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#34  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 6:21 pm

tuco wrote:There is also a position that the so-called "art" is a social construct and does not exist in reality. In this sense, there is no art and pseudo-art, but only those who like to distinguish them as such.

Maybe a question to ask would be: What is the point of labeling something as art, pseudo-art respectively? What is it for?

But for that we would have to ask the first cavewo/man who made that distinction I guess, distinction between normal and abnormal.



Normal and abnormal--what do either of these have to do with creative work?

How "normal" was van Gogh? Is it a percentage thing or more all or none?
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#35  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 6:29 pm

I don't think it is artists who are the pretentious ones when it comes to art. After all, the artist is talking about something s/he knows something about and not just spewing opinion.

Art is a means for communicating. Why else do we say a pictures is worth a thousand words? Artists are accomplished at using the visual to impart the intellectual or the emotional where a writer would have only text to offer. So really, art is more convenient for the intellectually lazy; they should be more grateful.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#36  Postby Dickens » Apr 22, 2011 6:31 pm

Tyrannical wrote:Even the Blind could get it right 50% of the time. An art students can get it right a whopping 66% of the time!
Us non-art major sighted people can only get it right about 55% of the time.

When people compare (just using their senses) a hundred gram weight with a 104 gram weight they judge the 104 gram weight to be heavier in 84% of cases

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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#37  Postby tuco » Apr 22, 2011 6:34 pm

I was referring to debate about the so-called art, and art versus pseudo-art.

What is art? A product of creative work.

What is, usually, prised as fine art? A product of creative work which is rare, abnormal, where normal just means average via Gauss curve. I suspect Van Gogh was not normal, but I am almost certain his work is abnormal.

Out of curiosity, who is to tell is something is art, pseudo-art and no art? I hope not experts.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#38  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 6:42 pm

tuco wrote:I was referring to debate about the so-called art, and art versus pseudo-art.

What is art? A product of creative work.

What is, usually, prised as fine art? A product of creative work which is rare, abnormal, where normal just means average via Gauss curve. I suspect Van Gogh was not normal, but I am almost certain his work is abnormal.

Out of curiosity, who is to tell is something is art, pseudo-art and no art? I hope not experts.



So when there is a leak in the plumbing that brings water to your house who's opinion of where it is, how to find it, if it matters and how to fix it do you heed--the plumber or your nosey neighbor?

When you have a pain in your chest, whose opinion about whether it is serious and you need to go to the hospital do you heed, the triage nurse or the postal clerk?

Are you saying there are no experts when it comes to art, or there shouldn't be? Why?
How about film, movies; are there experts in film? Should there be? Why?

Also, in regards to van Gogh being "abnormal", in what way? How is that significant to his work? Was he or was he not an artist? Why? What is abnormal about his work? Of what significance is that?
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#39  Postby tuco » Apr 22, 2011 6:50 pm

I would not say such case is a matter of an opinion, but a matter of facts. A leak can be measured, objectively classified. Expert opinion in this case, based on facts, has indeed higher probability of being close to reality.

I do not claim to know whether art, or morals for example, is a subject to the same laws* as gravity or electromagnetism, but I have not enough reason to believe it is so.

edit:* Oops, What a mind fart! .. but I will leave it there, it makes a point regardless.
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Re: Art Students can't tell a monkey's painting from art

#40  Postby Gallstones » Apr 22, 2011 6:56 pm

byofrcs wrote:
Tyrannical wrote:
byofrcs wrote:This only suggests commonality of mentality. Both humans and monkeys are primates and we're genetically similar including brain structures. (Quoting Wikipedia) - Humans and closely related primates are usually trichromats, as are some of the females of most species of New World monkeys.

Monkey see, monkey do. We aren't that special.


I wouldn't be opposed to keeping some of these modern artists in zoos now that you mention it :think:


Factory is the word you're after - you put artists in a factory. It increases the list prices of their works and the factory makes a cut. No matter what you do the more attention you attract to the artist then the greater the perceived value of their work.

It isn't rational - it is economics of supply and demand. Art is the bleeding edge of hard core capitalism.


This is the best we can do, make art into a production line product and artists into factory employees?
My reaction to this idea is a resounding "Fuck that!" If this is what is wanted, all that needs to be done is what has been done for centuries--ever since the printing press--crank the shit out by machine; don't have to involve people at all.
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