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Re: Game of Thrones

#6581  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 15, 2019 9:37 am

purplerat wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
purplerat wrote:I thought that occurred to me is that Tyrion's decision was fairly calculated. Both in standing by Dany and turning on Vary's. If Dany were taken out of the game prior to the attack on Kings Landing what would have happened? Would Jon and his coalition of the north, maybe including Dany's forces or maybe not, give up and leave Cersei to rule? Probably not. There would have been a bloody battle or maybe a long siege followed by a battle or something like that. Many people including many innocents were going to die.

Would that have been better or worse than what ultimately did happen? That's hard to say. The war could very well have gone on for years costing hundreds of thousands of lives. The best chance to avoid as much bloodshed as possible was Dany using her last dragon to end the war quickly with no more than the necessary casualties - basically the Iron Fleet and Golden Company. And they basically did achieve that until Dany either went mad or decided she needed rule with fear.

It's similar to the US decision to use nukes to end WWII. It was a horrific thing to have happened but there's an argument to be made that it was the least worst decision.

Your entire argument hinges on Tyrion assuming, without evidence, that Varys would try to kill Dany before the battle, rather than, for example, get John to usurp her authority.

[spoiler]But if Jon usurped her authority before the battle - which is what Tyrion and Varys appeared to be discussing in the previous episode - that would take the dragon out of the equation. You'd still be left we the prospect of a prolonged siege/battle that might kill hundreds of thousands.

That would not be enough imo to convince Tyrion to sacrifice Varys.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6582  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 15, 2019 9:39 am

Fallible wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Animavore wrote:I don't buy the Varys assassination theory at all.

Not sure I do either, my interpetation of that scene was that Varys simply had is little bird keeping an eye on Dany's moves.


Then the part of the conversation where the little bird says Danny hasn’t eaten anything and Varys replies “we’ll try again at supper” doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I don't remember the bolded bit so that might make the case, but reporting on Dany's earting habits itself does not necesssarily entail a plan to poison her.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6583  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 15, 2019 9:40 am

On a partially related note. Love watching Ygritte walking about as a copper in season 4 of Luther.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6584  Postby Fallible » May 15, 2019 10:45 am

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Fallible wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Animavore wrote:I don't buy the Varys assassination theory at all.

Not sure I do either, my interpetation of that scene was that Varys simply had is little bird keeping an eye on Dany's moves.


Then the part of the conversation where the little bird says Danny hasn’t eaten anything and Varys replies “we’ll try again at supper” doesn’t make a lot of sense.

I don't remember the bolded bit so that might make the case, but reporting on Dany's earting habits itself does not necesssarily entail a plan to poison her.


Sure, but that’s not all he did.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6585  Postby Matthew Shute » May 15, 2019 11:49 am

Tyrion, episode 4: [reacting to Varys] "We're discussing treason!" ... "(Of course I've thought about it. Thoughts aren't treason.")

Tyrion, episode 5: [one scene after snitching on Varys, for committing treason] Releases Jamie (doing so ultimately ensures Jamie dies the same episode), something Dany will obviously view... as treason.

The Tyrion failtrain never runs out of steam, does it? I hope, at least, we can have him be the one who does the necessary deed.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6586  Postby purplerat » May 15, 2019 1:47 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
purplerat wrote:I thought that occurred to me is that Tyrion's decision was fairly calculated. Both in standing by Dany and turning on Vary's. If Dany were taken out of the game prior to the attack on Kings Landing what would have happened? Would Jon and his coalition of the north, maybe including Dany's forces or maybe not, give up and leave Cersei to rule? Probably not. There would have been a bloody battle or maybe a long siege followed by a battle or something like that. Many people including many innocents were going to die.

Would that have been better or worse than what ultimately did happen? That's hard to say. The war could very well have gone on for years costing hundreds of thousands of lives. The best chance to avoid as much bloodshed as possible was Dany using her last dragon to end the war quickly with no more than the necessary casualties - basically the Iron Fleet and Golden Company. And they basically did achieve that until Dany either went mad or decided she needed rule with fear.

It's similar to the US decision to use nukes to end WWII. It was a horrific thing to have happened but there's an argument to be made that it was the least worst decision.

Your entire argument hinges on Tyrion assuming, without evidence, that Varys would try to kill Dany before the battle, rather than, for example, get John to usurp her authority.

But if Jon usurped her authority before the battle - which is what Tyrion and Varys appeared to be discussing in the previous episode - that would take the dragon out of the equation. You'd still be left we the prospect of a prolonged siege/battle that might kill hundreds of thousands.

That would not be enough imo to convince Tyrion to sacrifice Varys.

I think he may have done it to gain Dany's trust in order to help convince her to accept a potential surrender of Kings Landing.

Above all else in this episode Tyrion was desperate to get her to agree to heed the signal for a surrender. But he also knows that she is becoming increasingly paranoid and distrustful of the advisers she has remaining, which is basically him and Varys. Turning on Varys proves his loyalty to her and gains her trust, or at least that is what he hoped for.

As I alluded to earlier, I think Varys may have even being a bit obvious about his treason. While I don't think there was a direct plan between the two to do this I do think there was an unspoken understanding about the way things went down. At least that's how I interpreted that final moments between Tyrion and Varys before the latter's execution.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6587  Postby Shrunk » May 15, 2019 8:58 pm

I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6588  Postby purplerat » May 15, 2019 9:14 pm

Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.


Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6589  Postby Matthew Shute » May 15, 2019 9:18 pm

Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.


Innocent people die in wars, sure, but GoT has made that point before, and I don't think it's quite what they were getting at here. At least it wasn't the main point. The war part was over. She'd won. The enemy armies had surrendered. The city itself had surrendered. That's when she decides to ignore her actual enemy (Cersei) in the Red Keep, and specifically target the civilian population of King's Landing, systematically strafing from street to street with dragon fire to maximise fatalities. The methodical brutal efficiency of the extermination kind of reminded me of the killing machines in Stephen Speilberg's War of the Worlds. Deliberate mass murder - genocide, like you say. Less Barack Obama, more Hitler or Genghis Khan in vengeful mood.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6590  Postby Thomas Eshuis » May 15, 2019 9:51 pm

Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.

Greyworm never became an actual character imo, only a prop for the actions and interests of other characters.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6591  Postby scott1328 » May 15, 2019 11:40 pm

purplerat wrote:
Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.


Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.

Except that Tyrion did not give a lawful order. He, himself, broke the chain of command. Those soldiers are as much on the hook for releasing Jaimie as Tyrion himself is.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6592  Postby purplerat » May 15, 2019 11:50 pm

scott1328 wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.


Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.

Except that Tyrion did not give a lawful order. He, himself, broke the chain of command. Those soldiers are as much on the hook for releasing Jaimie as Tyrion himself is.

I'm not sure how the command would be unlawful. As far as I can tell Westeros has no written laws never mind rules of war. Just about the only legal precedent clearly outlined in the story is that the Hand of the King/Queen for all intents and purposes is the law.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6593  Postby scott1328 » May 16, 2019 12:01 am

purplerat wrote:
scott1328 wrote:
purplerat wrote:
Shrunk wrote:I'm surprised there has not been more discussion, here and elsewhere, of Grey Worm's role in the genocide, which is almost as pivotal as Dany's. In a way, that about-face was less foreseeable. But in other ways, completely predictable. The message I took from this episode (which I thought, even taking the flaws into account, were some of the finest 80 min of TV I have ever seen) is that Dany and her army killed thousands of innocent people, because that is what rulers and their armies do. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Daenerys Targaryen or Barack Obama.


Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.

Except that Tyrion did not give a lawful order. He, himself, broke the chain of command. Those soldiers are as much on the hook for releasing Jaimie as Tyrion himself is.


I'm not sure how the command would be unlawful. As far as I can tell Westeros has no written laws never mind rules of war. Just about the only legal precedent clearly outlined in the story is that the Hand of the King/Queen for all intents and purposes is the law.


You invoked the chain of command as something the Unsullied are “committed to a fault”. If the Unsullied do honor a notion of chain of command, then they would not care in the slightest what the custom is in Westeros. Tyrion’s order violates common notions of chain of command, and the Unsullied soldiers obeyed him. This seems to show that your assertion are committed to a chain of command is not true. What it does show is that the Unsullied are blindly committed to following the orders of a “Master”
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6594  Postby Animavore » May 16, 2019 5:00 am

A good analysis on how the show has changed.

https://www.comicsands.com/game-of-thro ... 68d22425b2

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Re: Game of Thrones

#6595  Postby Shrunk » May 16, 2019 3:22 pm

[quote="purplerat";p="2696691Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.[/quote]

I don't think he disobeyed an order. It was pretty clear that Dany was not accepting a surrender, and she is his commander in chief. There may also have been an arrangement between the two of them, in which Dany told him if she keeps burning shit, he keeps fighting.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6596  Postby purplerat » May 16, 2019 3:40 pm

Shrunk wrote:[quote="purplerat";p="2696691Grey Worm's role was definitely very big in the slaughter. He knew Dany had agreed to allow a surrender yet he goes against that which is the antithesis of what the Unsullied are all about. They are supposed to be committed to a fault to follow chain of command and orders. We even see that earlier in the episode when Tyrion uses that trait to free Jamie. The guards know what Dany wants but having not received an order directly from her Tyrion is able to pull rank to get passed them. So even if Grey Worm believed that Dany would have wanted them to ignore the surrender those weren't his orders. It was a huge moment in his story for him to do so and in such a violent and disturbing manner. I hope it doesn't get ignored in the finale.


I don't think he disobeyed an order. It was pretty clear that Dany was not accepting a surrender, and she is his commander in chief. There may also have been an arrangement between the two of them, in which Dany told him if she keeps burning shit, he keeps fighting.[/quote]
I didn't interpret the scene as him seeing her still going and then deciding to attack. In between the surrender and when he throws his spear he isn't watching for any signal from Dany. He's staring intently at the Lanister forces. When he decides to attack he doesn't give a command for his men to attack. In fact it's not even the Unsullied we see standing behind him. It's the Westerosi forces that we see and those men who launch into the slaughter of the surrendered men/innocents.

If you look closely you can see the Unsullied behind Jon and the men he his holding back. They have their spears up and are maintaining formation while Grey Worm goes berserk. It doesn't seem that this was a calculated decision by Grey Worm either by direct orders from Dany or him taking a cue from her continued attack.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6597  Postby Animavore » May 16, 2019 5:51 pm

GAME OF THRONES FANS PETITION HBO TO REMAKE SEASON 8 "WITH COMPETENT WRITERS"

https://ie.ign.com/articles/2019/05/16/ ... 610b001078
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6598  Postby purplerat » May 16, 2019 6:40 pm

Animavore wrote:
GAME OF THRONES FANS PETITION HBO TO REMAKE SEASON 8 "WITH COMPETENT WRITERS"

https://ie.ign.com/articles/2019/05/16/ ... 610b001078

I'm sure that will achieve a whole lot.

Better yet would be to petition GRRM to finish the story. Not much point in trying to remake the show when the original story hasn't even been completed.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6599  Postby Animavore » May 16, 2019 7:02 pm

I'll be waiting for the complete remake in 30 years.
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Re: Game of Thrones

#6600  Postby purplerat » May 16, 2019 7:04 pm

Animavore wrote:I'll be waiting for the complete remake in 30 years.

At this point I'd put the odds at GRRM living a another 30 years about even with him ever finishing the books.
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