Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

I think so...

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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#21  Postby rJD » Oct 05, 2011 2:42 pm

It might be a problem if they asserted copyright and prevented images of the original from being seen at all. It would be a problem if great works already on public display were sold into private collections to be hidden away. Otherwise? What makes a painting great? I'm not sure there's any objective or obvious criteria to use. I might think someone's a knob for buying a "big name" painting and locking it away but I'm not sure anyone's life is seriously diminished by their actions.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#22  Postby Varangian » Oct 05, 2011 3:35 pm

Besides, "great" art hidden away, where it cannot be appreciated by wider circles, is rather pointless. It's like saying "my wife is the most beautiful in the world, but you aren't allowed to see her".
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#23  Postby Ihavenofingerprints » Oct 05, 2011 3:50 pm

Varangian wrote:Besides, "great" art hidden away, where it cannot be appreciated by wider circles, is rather pointless. It's like saying "my wife is the most beautiful in the world, but you aren't allowed to see her".


Yes, but it is OK because we can still view her online for free.




oops, said too much..... :oops:



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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#24  Postby epepke » Oct 05, 2011 4:27 pm

I don't care so much, because they eventually die and bestow.

The truly excellent Dali museum in St. Petersburg was a private collection.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#25  Postby Sovereign » Nov 19, 2011 11:32 pm

I'm split on this. As it has already been stated, my wealthy people's collections have actually saved these works. What I have been seeing more of is tat they will loan their collections to art museums for x amount of time and those collections will tour various museums before returning back to the person who owns them. I'm perfectly fine with that.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#26  Postby MrDoom » Dec 20, 2011 5:18 am

UtilityMonster wrote:I'm in full agreement, Devogue. We should seize private property from people who paid for it because it isn't fair that everyone cannot have that property. It isn't fair that we can't all have the experience of seeing the art in person as opposed to seeing it online for free, just like it isn't fair that people have to listen to recordings of Mozart rather than listening to Mozart live.


WTF?! :shock: How is that not fair?! The person was able and willing to pay money to possess an product or service provided by another willing and able person or institution in a private agreement. That's a completely balanced equation. For all it matters to anyone else, after the point of sale the owner can immediately burn the piece if they want to. That's kind of what makes it property in the first place.

If the government has the right to seize the property of individuals like this in the name of "fairness" (and let me add that the notion that people have an inherent and unqualified "right" to artistic expression, even when it contravenes property rights, is lunacy), where does this power end? It is madness.

EDIT: Indeed, the quoted post was sarcastic. Nonetheless, the OP was proposing this anyways.
Last edited by MrDoom on Dec 20, 2011 5:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#27  Postby sennekuyl » Dec 20, 2011 5:40 am

It was sarcasm MrDoom.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#28  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Dec 20, 2011 5:45 am

If they payed for the right to keep it then what is the alternative? Confiscate it? Not a good precedent unless you want the government deciding what you can and can't have based on some perceived value.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#29  Postby CookieJon » Dec 20, 2011 5:57 am

Great question! I have another one...

Is it wrong for great patents to be hoarded by pharmaceutical companies?
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#30  Postby sennekuyl » Dec 20, 2011 6:06 am

Hmmm... a little harder. Is the patent a particular molecule or a genome? I'd hesitantly say yes, but if it is a device [or system of devices] to produce said molecule or equvalent genome then probably not.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#31  Postby Darwinsbulldog » Dec 20, 2011 6:06 am

CookieJon wrote:Great question! I have another one...

Is it wrong for great patents to be hoarded by pharmaceutical companies?


bad pharma! :conspiracy: :grin:
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#32  Postby CdesignProponentsist » Dec 20, 2011 6:36 am

CookieJon wrote:Great question! I have another one...

Is it wrong for great patents to be hoarded by pharmaceutical companies?


As long as the alternative does not provide incentive for advancement. Sometimes that is the price to pay to actually have big companies with big resources come up with big solutions.

Of course there should be and are limitations on how long they can horde them. I don't much know about patent law but I think there may also be restrictions on hording just to deny your competitors the patents without actually using it.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#33  Postby orpheus » Dec 20, 2011 4:41 pm

I can never resist throwing a monkey wrench into the works of these arguments by mentioning one of La Monte Young's musical compositions, the score of which consists of an index card bearing the instructions: "Prepare any piece and play it."
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#34  Postby devogue » Dec 28, 2011 9:50 am

MrDoom wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:I'm in full agreement, Devogue. We should seize private property from people who paid for it because it isn't fair that everyone cannot have that property...


...the OP was proposing this anyways.


Er, no it wasn't. I highlighted something I consider to be essentially unfair, but I did not mention "seizing private property" as a solution, something I made perfectly clear here (third paragraph of my response).

Don't use me to try and squirm out of your epic sarcasm fail. :lol:
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#35  Postby NineOneFour » Dec 28, 2011 5:52 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
Seabass wrote:
These same individuals may have gotten rich enough from their inventions to be able to afford their own private art collections. Good for them, I say.


You mean they inherited wealth from their robber baron ancestors. That is the only explanation for why there are rich people.


Actually, that's true of the vast majority, yes.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#36  Postby RDW » Dec 29, 2011 5:57 pm

It would be a problem if great works already on public display were sold into private collections to be hidden away.


This happens from time to time, e.g. when there are questions of ownership. Several great paintings from the Belvedere gallery's Klimt collection in Vienna had to be returned to the owner's heirs when it was revealed they'd basically been stolen by the Nazis, and kept there by the dirty tricks of the post-war government:

http://arthistory.about.com/od/klimt/ig ... uerklimts/

Austria had first refusal on buying them fairly (at what turned out to be a large underestimate of the market value), but declined to take up the offer, claiming it couldn't afford them. The most famous portrait, the spectacular 'Adele 1' was sold privately but ended up on display in a gallery in NYC (where at least in can be seen, though no longer in the context of the artist's other greatest works). Four other paintings, including 'Adele 2', went to public auction and disappeared into private hoards (most public collections can't compete with the crazy prices private collectors are prepared to fork out). It's great to see justice done, but somehow hard to be overjoyed by the final outcome - four great works lost to public view indefinitely.

Is the patent a particular molecule or a genome? I'd hesitantly say yes, but if it is a device [or system of devices] to produce said molecule or equivalent genome then probably not.


'Gene' patents (e.g. for medical testing) are usually couched as 'methods' for producing a particular DNA sequence, which would seem to fit your criteria. Unfortunately these methods are really just trivial variations on existing procedures (PCR amplification, etc.) that a graduate student could cook up in their lunch hour using a 'primer design' website. It's the sequence itself that's effectively being patented.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#37  Postby UtilityMonster » Jan 03, 2012 4:03 am

NineOneFour wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:
Seabass wrote:
These same individuals may have gotten rich enough from their inventions to be able to afford their own private art collections. Good for them, I say.


You mean they inherited wealth from their robber baron ancestors. That is the only explanation for why there are rich people.


Actually, that's true of the vast majority, yes.


Have any statistics to back that up? I am genuinely interested to know if that is the case.

I think a more accurate explanation takes into account that, rather than simply inheriting millions or billions of dollars, the children of the wealthy have better access to education, nutrition, genes and a more nurturing and loving home, and are thus more likely to prosper in their professions as a result. This doesn't particularly bother me, as I think that people who work to earn money should be allowed to spend most of it as they please, and if that means spending it on their childrens' welfare, then so be it. Do you disagree?
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#38  Postby cavarka9 » Jan 03, 2012 5:23 am

UtilityMonster wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:

You mean they inherited wealth from their robber baron ancestors. That is the only explanation for why there are rich people.


Actually, that's true of the vast majority, yes.


Have any statistics to back that up? I am genuinely interested to know if that is the case.

I think a more accurate explanation takes into account that, rather than simply inheriting millions or billions of dollars, the children of the wealthy have better access to education, nutrition, genes and a more nurturing and loving home, and are thus more likely to prosper in their professions as a result. This doesn't particularly bother me, as I think that people who work to earn money should be allowed to spend most of it as they please, and if that means spending it on their childrens' welfare, then so be it. Do you disagree?



And if one believes in utilitarianism, then surely the issue should be maximum good for maximum people, in which case, it might be better off to kill such people and re distribute their wealth.
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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the ric

#39  Postby devogue » Jan 03, 2012 9:39 am

cavarka9 wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:
NineOneFour wrote:

Actually, that's true of the vast majority, yes.


Have any statistics to back that up? I am genuinely interested to know if that is the case.

I think a more accurate explanation takes into account that, rather than simply inheriting millions or billions of dollars, the children of the wealthy have better access to education, nutrition, genes and a more nurturing and loving home, and are thus more likely to prosper in their professions as a result. This doesn't particularly bother me, as I think that people who work to earn money should be allowed to spend most of it as they please, and if that means spending it on their childrens' welfare, then so be it. Do you disagree?



And if one believes in utilitarianism, then surely the issue should be maximum good for maximum people, in which case, it might be better off to kill such people and re distribute their wealth.


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Re: Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

#40  Postby cavarka9 » Jan 03, 2012 10:59 am

Is it wrong for great art works to be hoarded by the rich?

considering how long you kept this thread up, I agree that it is wrong :dopey:
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