Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

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Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#1  Postby DougC » Feb 02, 2012 1:54 am

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-16835270

"A painting thought to be the earliest replica of Leonardo Da Vinci's Mona Lisa has been discovered at Madrid's Prado Museum."
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#2  Postby Grace » Feb 02, 2012 11:53 pm

The background error seems to be an improvement by the student's version compared to Leonardo's version of it. The details of the hair and eyes makes me think this was the artists original version and the painting with the drab ugly brown colors and major background error could have be the student's painting instead. How would we ever know this?
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#3  Postby ramseyoptom » Feb 03, 2012 12:02 am

I like the new one better. I wonder, however, if the Mona Lisa (Louvre) could do with a clean or at least a slight wash and brush up? I saw it once many years ago but it is protacted behind several layers of glass it may be that this helps to cause the disappointment.

Meant to go to the Da Vinci Exhibition at the National Gallery, but found it difficult to arrange the time off.
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#4  Postby Grace » Feb 03, 2012 3:27 am

A clean up would be nice, but it was ruined by shellac.

The one day I could go to the Louvre, and it was closed on a Tuesday! The travel guide said it was closed on Monday. Go figure.
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#5  Postby DougC » Feb 03, 2012 3:28 am

Grace wrote:A clean up would be nice, but it was ruined by shellac.

The one day I could go to the Louvre, and it was closed on a Tuesday! The travel guide said it was closed on Monday. Go figure.


Thats the French for you. Bastards.
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#6  Postby Grace » Feb 03, 2012 10:54 pm

Funny! They think we're bastards.

I lied to a pair of French officers once. I heard the French can be rude to Americans, so I told them I was Canadian. I showed them a Canadian pin I was wearing. I would have been up shit creek if they would have asked me for my passport. We were getting on famously until I revealed the truth. They turned their backs on me. Thinking it was a fluke, I ran around to their front side. They turned their backs again. Humph....!
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#7  Postby Mr.Samsa » Feb 04, 2012 12:22 am

Grace wrote:The background error seems to be an improvement by the student's version compared to Leonardo's version of it. The details of the hair and eyes makes me think this was the artists original version and the painting with the drab ugly brown colors and major background error could have be the student's painting instead. How would we ever know this?


The new version looks "clearer" because the student apparently has no mastered the sfumato technique, or chose not to use it in this picture. It's done to remove the lines that separate objects in paintings and has the areas of light and dark blend into each other, which gives it the "smokey" appearance but makes it more realistic looking. That's why the original Mona Lisa looks like a photograph, and the student's version looks a little cartoony.

We can't say for sure whether it is definitely the case that da Vinci drew the one we refer to as the original, as perhaps on that day he decided to forego his advanced technique and instead his student took the initiative to do so, but this seems unlikely and the newer Mona Lisa seems to be at odds with the style and form of the rest of da Vinci's work.
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#8  Postby Grace » Feb 04, 2012 5:35 am

Hmmm... I see.

So the Sfumato technique is like shading or creating shadows with a stipple brush?
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#9  Postby Mr.Samsa » Feb 04, 2012 6:36 am

Grace wrote:Hmmm... I see.

So the Sfumato technique is like shading or creating shadows with a stipple brush?


I'm not a painting expert, but I don't think so. I think they use a single fine brush and create thousands of micro-strokes which gradually blends the areas together. It's not about the 'shading' as such, but more about removing the boundaries between objects through a graduation of tones - which is how things look in real life, rather than having a thick black line around everything. I can't guarantee the accuracy of that though, since I'm not a painter.. :grin:
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#10  Postby Godless Infidel » Feb 04, 2012 7:09 am

Grace wrote:Funny! They think we're bastards.

I lied to a pair of French officers once. I heard the French can be rude to Americans, so I told them I was Canadian. I showed them a Canadian pin I was wearing. I would have been up shit creek if they would have asked me for my passport. We were getting on famously until I revealed the truth. They turned their backs on me. Thinking it was a fluke, I ran around to their front side. They turned their backs again. Humph....!


Canadian impersonators: ruining our reputation word wide. :nono:
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#11  Postby Grace » Feb 06, 2012 5:03 am

Really? What are they saying about you?
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#12  Postby DougC » Feb 09, 2012 5:11 am

Grace wrote:Funny! They think we're bastards.

I lied to a pair of French officers once. I heard the French can be rude to Americans, so I told them I was Canadian. I showed them a Canadian pin I was wearing. I would have been up shit creek if they would have asked me for my passport. We were getting on famously until I revealed the truth. They turned their backs on me. Thinking it was a fluke, I ran around to their front side. They turned their backs again. Humph....!


There is a British comedian called Al Murray, one of his lines is -
"Every time a Frenchman looks at the Eiffel Tower, it reminds him they should have built another battleship."

France is the only country where I'm Scottish not British, they love the "Ecosse".

WELCOME TO THE "WE HATE THE FRENCH THREAD" :P
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#13  Postby paceetrate » Feb 24, 2012 3:40 am

Mr.Samsa wrote:
Grace wrote:Hmmm... I see.

So the Sfumato technique is like shading or creating shadows with a stipple brush?


I'm not a painting expert, but I don't think so. I think they use a single fine brush and create thousands of micro-strokes which gradually blends the areas together. It's not about the 'shading' as such, but more about removing the boundaries between objects through a graduation of tones - which is how things look in real life, rather than having a thick black line around everything. I can't guarantee the accuracy of that though, since I'm not a painter.. :grin:


Nope. Sfumato is usually done by glazing, which means you put down a layer of regular opaque paint first, and then use thinned paint over it (the glaze), gradually layering each coat of glaze over the last one to create a perfectly smooth gradient. The word means "to evaporate like smoke", which is the effect they were usually going for: blurring the boundary between the shadows in the background and the shading used to give the illusion of form, so that the form looks as if it's melting into the background... or in this case, the shaded side of Mona Lisa's face melting into her hair.
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#14  Postby aban57 » Feb 24, 2012 12:17 pm

Grace wrote:Funny! They think we're bastards.

I lied to a pair of French officers once. I heard the French can be rude to Americans, so I told them I was Canadian. I showed them a Canadian pin I was wearing. I would have been up shit creek if they would have asked me for my passport. We were getting on famously until I revealed the truth. They turned their backs on me. Thinking it was a fluke, I ran around to their front side. They turned their backs again. Humph....!


i could testify for days about how stupid french officers are (can be, if you prefer the "politicaly correct" version).

In the last months, I faced quite some disturbingly stupid commandment decisions, which can be added to all the ones I witnessed during my carreer.
But I (naively) thought that when it comes to working in an international environment, they should put the best ones in the right positions. Obviously I was wrong.

I also went to the Louvres on a monday, and it was closed, like apparently every mondays :)
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#15  Postby aban57 » Feb 24, 2012 12:20 pm

DougC wrote:WELCOME TO THE "WE HATE THE FRENCH THREAD" :P


I didn't read that :naughty:
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#16  Postby DougC » Feb 24, 2012 3:23 pm

Ecosse :surrender:
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#17  Postby Mr.Samsa » Feb 26, 2012 3:33 am

paceetrate wrote:Nope. Sfumato is usually done by glazing, which means you put down a layer of regular opaque paint first, and then use thinned paint over it (the glaze), gradually layering each coat of glaze over the last one to create a perfectly smooth gradient. The word means "to evaporate like smoke", which is the effect they were usually going for: blurring the boundary between the shadows in the background and the shading used to give the illusion of form, so that the form looks as if it's melting into the background... or in this case, the shaded side of Mona Lisa's face melting into her hair.


Thanks for the correction. I did actually know that (somewhere in my brain your description clicked), so I'm not sure what the fuck I was describing.. :scratch:
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Re: Mona Lisa copy reveals new detail

#18  Postby Sityl » Feb 26, 2012 3:47 am

The "Copy" looks better than the "original."
Stephen Colbert wrote:Now, like all great theologies, Bill [O'Reilly]'s can be boiled down to one sentence - 'There must be a god, because I don't know how things work.'


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