Free Will

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Re: Free Will

#13241  Postby newolder » Apr 04, 2019 10:25 am

Destroyer wrote:
newolder wrote:^ Let me guess, hmmmm, it's tricky... Hmmm... Guv = Tuv, Amirite?

Yes, but we are talking about life and choices, not gravity.

Juggling balls is not a life choice involving gravity? :scratch:
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Re: Free Will

#13242  Postby GrahamH » Apr 04, 2019 10:26 am

Destroyer wrote:
I mean neurons.


That's quite an assumption. Why are neuorons the only possibility for making decisions? Why are electrical impulses the only possibility for communicating between them?

Remember the context here is an argument attempting to derive the nature of reality from such narrow assumptions that what we (think we) observe are somehow necessary.

If you just want to describe how humans seem to work then fair enough.
Last edited by GrahamH on Apr 04, 2019 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Free Will

#13243  Postby Destroyer » Apr 04, 2019 10:28 am

newolder wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
newolder wrote:^ Let me guess, hmmmm, it's tricky... Hmmm... Guv = Tuv, Amirite?

Yes, but we are talking about life and choices, not gravity.

Juggling balls is not a life choice involving gravity? :scratch:

All activity involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus. Therefore, no free will.
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Re: Free Will

#13244  Postby Destroyer » Apr 04, 2019 10:32 am

GrahamH wrote:
Destroyer wrote:
I mean neurons.


That's quite an assumption. Why are neuorons the only possibility for making decisions? Why are electrical impulses the only possibility for communicating between them?

Remember the context here is an argument attempting to derive the nature of reality from such narrow assumptions that what we (think we) observe are somehow necessary.

If you just want to describe how humans seem to work then fair enough.

If you are aware of any other mechanisms besides neurons that motivates mass containing life, let me know... This pertains to all biological creatures, not just humans.
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Re: Free Will

#13245  Postby newolder » Apr 04, 2019 10:41 am

Destroyer wrote:...
All activity involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus. Therefore, no free will.

Is juggling an activity involving life? Yes.
Does juggling involve gravity? Yes.
Is gravity dependent upon electrical stimulus? No.

A false premise yields an unsound conclusion. Thanks for the demonstration. :thumbup:
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Re: Free Will

#13246  Postby GrahamH » Apr 04, 2019 10:51 am

newolder wrote:
Destroyer wrote:...
All activity involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus. Therefore, no free will.

Is juggling an activity involving life? Yes.
Does juggling involve gravity? Yes.
Is gravity dependent upon electrical stimulus? No.

A false premise yields an unsound conclusion. Thanks for the demonstration. :thumbup:


All activity [ball juggling] involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus.


That is true Living things that juggle balls will be using electrical impulses to sense the balls and control muscles.

Things that aren't alive could juggle balls though.
So the premise reduces to something like "Known life forms utilise electrical impulses for motion control" Depending on your definition of "life".
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Re: Free Will

#13247  Postby Destroyer » Apr 04, 2019 10:52 am

newolder wrote:
Destroyer wrote:...
All activity involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus. Therefore, no free will.

Is juggling an activity involving life? Yes.
Does juggling involve gravity? Yes.
Is gravity dependent upon electrical stimulus? No.

A false premise yields an unsound conclusion. Thanks for the demonstration. :thumbup:

Does juggling occurr independently of the electrical stimulus imparted by life?
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Re: Free Will

#13248  Postby newolder » Apr 04, 2019 11:18 am

Destroyer wrote:
newolder wrote:
Destroyer wrote:...
All activity involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus. Therefore, no free will.

Is juggling an activity involving life? Yes.
Does juggling involve gravity? Yes.
Is gravity dependent upon electrical stimulus? No.

A false premise yields an unsound conclusion. Thanks for the demonstration. :thumbup:

Does juggling occurr independently of the electrical stimulus imparted by life?

There is very little to no transfer of electrical charge to the juggled objects, and any such transfer does not usually affect the trajectories.

When one puts a piece of bread under a grill, how is toast the end product of 'electrical stimulus imparted by life'? You see, I have to pay an electricity bill and would like to tell the electricity board that the 'electrical stimulus' at my residence is solely a product of my life. :roll:
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Re: Free Will

#13249  Postby newolder » Apr 04, 2019 11:43 am

GrahamH wrote:
newolder wrote:
Destroyer wrote:...
All activity involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus. Therefore, no free will.

Is juggling an activity involving life? Yes.
Does juggling involve gravity? Yes.
Is gravity dependent upon electrical stimulus? No.

A false premise yields an unsound conclusion. Thanks for the demonstration. :thumbup:


All activity [ball juggling] involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus.


Why have you omitted gravity from your attempted fix?

I joined the current conversation when Destroyer posted:
What other forces besides electrical impulses motivates mass?
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Re: Free Will

#13250  Postby GrahamH » Apr 04, 2019 11:54 am

newolder wrote:
GrahamH wrote:
newolder wrote:
Destroyer wrote:...
All activity involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus. Therefore, no free will.

Is juggling an activity involving life? Yes.
Does juggling involve gravity? Yes.
Is gravity dependent upon electrical stimulus? No.

A false premise yields an unsound conclusion. Thanks for the demonstration. :thumbup:


All activity [ball juggling] involving life is dependent upon electrical stimulus.


Why have you omitted gravity from your attempted fix?

I joined the current conversation when Destroyer posted:
What other forces besides electrical impulses motivates mass?


It wasn't well worded.
I took that to mean something other than a basic force acting on mass. In conjunction with the statement I revised it seemed to me to mean that electrical impulses are crucial to controlled motion in organisms, not that electrical impulses push mass around. Organisms don't utilise gravity to control their motions. They don't contract muscle fibres using "gravity impulses".
In "All activity involving life" the activity would be juggling, not gravity. The activity is dependent on muscle control via electrical impulses but that has no implications for other things involved with the activity, such as gravity.

It doesn't say "all things involved with the activities of life..."
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Re: Free Will

#13251  Postby newolder » Apr 04, 2019 12:42 pm

GrahamH wrote:...
In conjunction with the statement I revised it seemed to me to mean that electrical impulses are crucial to controlled motion in organisms, not that electrical impulses push mass around. Organisms don't utilise gravity to control their motions. They don't contract muscle fibres using "gravity impulses".

Juggling is dependent upon gravity otherwise things would continue in a state of rest or uniform rectilinear motion after the application of an external unbalanced force.
In "All activity involving life" the activity would be juggling, not gravity.

Yes, it's the in-life activity of juggling that requires gravity otherwise (see above).
The activity is dependent on muscle control via electrical impulses but that has no implications for other things involved with the activity, such as gravity.

Then we disagree that juggling depends upon gravity.
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Re: Free Will

#13252  Postby GrahamH » Apr 04, 2019 12:44 pm

newolder wrote:
Then we disagree that juggling depends upon gravity.


I don't think so. Juggling depends on gravity. Juggling depends on electrical impulses. Gravity doesn't depend on electrical impulses.
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Re: Free Will

#13253  Postby newolder » Apr 04, 2019 12:57 pm

GrahamH wrote:
newolder wrote:
Then we disagree that juggling depends upon gravity.


I don't think so. Juggling depends on gravity. Juggling depends on electrical impulses. Gravity doesn't depend on electrical impulses.

That is clearer for me. So, back to where I joined the conversation...
Destroyer:
What other forces besides electrical impulses motivates mass?

Answer: The gravitational force, at minimum, also 'motivates mass'.
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Re: Free Will

#13254  Postby LucidFlight » Apr 04, 2019 1:02 pm

The overall act of juggling involves gravity. But the initial impetus is motor driven (machine or biological) via a logic system fed by sensors. This could be a human brain hooked up to a body. It could also be a juggling robot.
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Re: Free Will

#13255  Postby surreptitious57 » Apr 04, 2019 1:17 pm

You could juggle on the Moon so gravity is not actually necessary and it would also be
easier as the balls would be moving slower though that would make it less impressive
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Re: Free Will

#13256  Postby LucidFlight » Apr 04, 2019 1:18 pm

I guess you could juggle in deep space as well.
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Re: Free Will

#13257  Postby GrahamH » Apr 04, 2019 1:19 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:You could juggle on the Moon so gravity is not actually necessary and it would also be
easier as the balls would be moving slower though that would make it less impressive

There's gravity on the moon. :roll:
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Re: Free Will

#13258  Postby GrahamH » Apr 04, 2019 1:22 pm

LucidFlight wrote:I guess you could juggle in deep space as well.


Well strictly what you need to make the balls fall is acceleration, so you could juggle in a spaceship that was far from any gravity well so long as the engines were accelerating the ship, or you were on the inside of a rotating ring.
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Re: Free Will

#13259  Postby newolder » Apr 04, 2019 1:24 pm

surreptitious57 wrote:You could juggle on the Moon so gravity is not actually necessary and it would also be
easier as the balls would be moving slower though that would make it less impressive

There is no gravity on the Moon? Do NASA know about this? They should be told immediately!
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Re: Free Will

#13260  Postby newolder » Apr 04, 2019 1:28 pm

LucidFlight wrote:I guess you could juggle in deep space as well.

Yes. The principle of equivalence says that a locally accelerating frame is indistinguishable from a gravitational field. It's still gravity (by Einstein's reckoning) though.
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