mindyourmind wrote:

Steve wrote::this: I am quite happy meditating on my own, but I am no where near as advanced. Yet I can see that is exactly how it is. I just need more practice. I still have a long way to go...

Nope. You're there already - you just don't see it yet. As do most of us

OK - I can see it, but I keep getting distracted. How about that? And some of those distractions are fucking doozies... This stuff is HARD.

Steve wrote:

mindyourmind wrote:

Steve wrote::this: I am quite happy meditating on my own, but I am no where near as advanced. Yet I can see that is exactly how it is. I just need more practice. I still have a long way to go...

Nope. You're there already - you just don't see it yet. As do most of us

OK - I can see it, but I keep getting distracted. How about that? And some of those distractions are fucking doozies... This stuff is HARD.

Of course, some of the hard-core Zen guys start to say that the distractions are where truth is. Expressed in the saying, samsara is nirvana. Well, the distraction is certainly what is now. But I suppose generally we have some sense that we want to be somewhere else! Why is that so comical?

nunnington wrote:
Of course, some of the hard-core Zen guys start to say that the distractions are where truth is. Expressed in the saying, samsara is nirvana. Well, the distraction is certainly what is now. But I suppose generally we have some sense that we want to be somewhere else! Why is that so comical?

I sat in a zazen session back in the 80's and it was NOT for me. I think I was too young, maybe. Zen was too esoteric and empty for me to find a footing. I have a few Ken Wilbur books and I like them, but boy are they intellectual. I have a friend who does a Tibetan style meditation - I would join her just for the meditation - and I know I would not go very far in that method either. She recently hosted some monks doing a beautiful sand mandala. It is very pretty and the monks were a riot but it didn't seem to apply to every day living. I now realize there are a bazillion different approaches. I say this in case others are reading as it is important to find a method that works for YOU. I feel very lucky to feel as comfortable in my method as I do. I particularly like how I can apply it 24/7/365 even in my sleep. But I know a lot of people would get nowhere with it. I sorta choked at first as it is in many ways a prayer form and I really dislike religious pious bullshit. But the way it was presented fit very well with other stuff I had been exposed to that was very formative in my life and I feel like I have finally got to where I can trust the process enough to really immerse myself in it. Yet I am still holding back... Those would be the distractions at work...

OK - we are getting off topic.

A bunch of us did some Zen retreats about 30 years ago, and liked it a lot, and eventually we just started doing our own group. We have an added bit, in that we permit some communication at times in the format, which actually speeds it up a lot, as you can just let go of something.

Anyway, here we are 30 years later, longer in the tooth, going grey and bald, etc. But still with that blasted question, 'what am I?', or whatever it is. But it's been wonderful and beautiful. And I found out who/what I am.

nunnington wrote: But still with that blasted question, 'what am I?', or whatever it is. But it's been wonderful and beautiful. And I found out who/what I am.

A reflection of the universe?

I thought zen was zen practice I didn't know there were different styles. What exactly is the point of meditation by the way Everyone tells me something different and vague like "understanding your true nature"?? What exactly am I supposed to be doing...thanks and I get the body dis-identification thing now it makes sense...it's like wherever your attention is?

inkaStepa wrote:I thought zen was zen practice I didn't know there were different styles. What exactly is the point of meditation by the way Everyone tells me something different and vague like "understanding your true nature"?? What exactly am I supposed to be doing...thanks and I get the body dis-identification thing now it makes sense...it's like wherever your attention is?

The point is to live in freedom. You said you have OCD issues. Meditation may not be the cure but it may help you implement the cure. You would not believe how many different styles of meditation there are.

romansh wrote:

nunnington wrote: But still with that blasted question, 'what am I?', or whatever it is. But it's been wonderful and beautiful. And I found out who/what I am.

A reflection of the universe?

Whaddya mean, reflection?

inkaStepa wrote:I thought zen was zen practice I didn't know there were different styles. What exactly is the point of meditation by the way Everyone tells me something different and vague like "understanding your true nature"?? What exactly am I supposed to be doing...thanks and I get the body dis-identification thing now it makes sense...it's like wherever your attention is?

Soto Zen uses sitting (zazen) and Rinzai Zen uses the koan (the unanswerable question, e.g. 'how many stars are there in the sky?'), but there are many sub-schools and blends, and there are various national brands, e.g. Korean Zen, Hong Kong Zen, and various schools in the West now. I think mostly it is very very tough, physically and mentally. I knew these guys:

http://www.westernchanfellowship.org/

Steve wrote:

mindyourmind wrote:

Steve wrote::this: I am quite happy meditating on my own, but I am no where near as advanced. Yet I can see that is exactly how it is. I just need more practice. I still have a long way to go...

Nope. You're there already - you just don't see it yet. As do most of us

OK - I can see it, but I keep getting distracted. How about that? And some of those distractions are fucking doozies... This stuff is HARD.

Yes it is. You would have come across the beautiful comparison to samsara as an executioner tempting us with our last meal (distractions).

mindyourmind wrote: You would have come across the beautiful comparison to samsara as an executioner tempting us with our last meal (distractions).

That sounds like a meal to die for. My stuff is more like an addiction where the flesh wants what will kill it and the mind can see the inevitable outcome but wants that deadly indulgence so the outcome is not clear. So long as I don't fall asleep I am fine. But I keep nodding off and finding myself back to no good. And all I want to do sometimes is sleep. But I am also curious what would happen if I stayed awake, if I could overcome these physical drives.

From Easwaran's book Conquest of Mind:

"In the river of life," says an ancient yoga text, "two currents flow in opposite directions. One, on the surface, flows toward sorrow, toward sickness, toward bondage. The other, beneath it, flows toward happiness, health, and freedom."

This may be fantastic hydrodynamics, but it illustrates our predicament perfectly. If we stay at the surface and do nothing, this image suggests, life will take us somewhere - but not where we want to go. Staying in one place is not an option. To catch the deep current that leads to freedom, we have to swim and swim hard, against the flow of every conditioned response.

Steve wrote:

mindyourmind wrote: You would have come across the beautiful comparison to samsara as an executioner tempting us with our last meal (distractions).

That sounds like a meal to die for. My stuff is more like an addiction where the flesh wants what will kill it and the mind can see the inevitable outcome but wants that deadly indulgence so the outcome is not clear. So long as I don't fall asleep I am fine. But I keep nodding off and finding myself back to no good. And all I want to do sometimes is sleep. But I am also curious what would happen if I stayed awake, if I could overcome these physical drives.

From Easwaran's book Conquest of Mind:

"In the river of life," says an ancient yoga text, "two currents flow in opposite directions. One, on the surface, flows toward sorrow, toward sickness, toward bondage. The other, beneath it, flows toward happiness, health, and freedom."

This may be fantastic hydrodynamics, but it illustrates our predicament perfectly. If we stay at the surface and do nothing, this image suggests, life will take us somewhere - but not where we want to go. Staying in one place is not an option. To catch the deep current that leads to freedom, we have to swim and swim hard, against the flow of every conditioned response.

A beautiful image, but seeing life as "two streams" is a part of the dual thinking that causes more opposition, more pressure.


I know, I know .... easier said than done

Wait.."against every conditioned response." What does that mean???!

inkaStepa wrote:Wait.."against every conditioned response." What does that mean???!

It means to choose what we want most over what we want now. I don't think we ever stop learning about the difference. What we want most is of lasting benefit, what we want now is pleasure. Sometimes they are the same thing, but that is rare.

As an addendum to my last comment working on what we want most, when we are clear that this is what we are doing, can change what was suffering in the here and now into pleasure or at least end that part of the suffering. I know you care deeply about your family. I know you would suffer happily if it was clear it would benefit them deeply. The difference is in where we place our attention.

So it's like changing your perception? I think I understand...I mean I do that when it comes to being in school. I wish a lot of the time that I could work more so I could buy us better food, better clothes etc but I try to do as best as I can in school for the future. Is that like the meditation you were talking about? I never thought of it that way.

I think that is a perfect example. School is not much fun but it has huge benefits not just for you but for your family. And not just later. I had some Mexican employees who were here without legal papers. In one case Juan's family had sacrificed so Juan could graduate from high school as he was very bright and then he came to the US to send money home so others in his family could get educated. I ended up helping get his own business going kinda in competition with mine. My clients knew what I was doing and everyone did what we could. The stress on him made him a bit wild at times, but he he is now doing really well. My family were invited to his sisters wedding when she came to the US - it was huge. They had all worked hard for the benefit of other people and it was really hard at times. But they made it. He now has legal papers, some great kids. And the family commitment and caring is huge as a result. In fact, just the effort of trying will build that caring and commitment.

As for the meditation. That is just a tool to help me stop myself from getting too stuck in my thinking. I went through a rough patch myself where I became very self absorbed and nearly lost my marriage. I took to meditation then and it is an important practice for me. There is a good philosophy in it. I was raised to not trust religion so it was hard for me to hear some of it but I think I have a reasonable grasp of it from an atheist perspective. I found this forum in part to hang out with other skeptics so I could explore some of the material in a more familiar place. Now I have got a handle on it I recognize it in many different ways.

Steve wrote:

As for the meditation. That is just a tool to help me stop myself from getting too stuck in my thinking. I went through a rough patch myself where I became very self absorbed and nearly lost my marriage. I took to meditation then and it is an important practice for me. There is a good philosophy in it. I was raised to not trust religion so it was hard for me to hear some of it but I think I have a reasonable grasp of it from an atheist perspective. I found this forum in part to hang out with other skeptics so I could explore some of the material in a more familiar place. Now I have got a handle on it I recognize it in many different ways.

I like that. I do meditation where there seems to be very little philosophy in it, and there is something very pure about that for me, just a sense of now and here. I think also for me, looking back, there were a series of disillusionments that went on via meditation, or what one of my teachers used to call 'crushed illusions'. These are very painful actually, but I came out of them feeling a freshness and vitality about life now. I am a Christian, but I can set aside all the religious apparatus when I meditate, and this is again very cleansing. I am not anything really, and yet I embrace everything.

Nunnington, what is a "crushed illusion"? Thanks..

In Buddhism it seems quite straightforward; a core principle is the four noble truths, a short version of which goes as follows:

- Suffering does exist
- Suffering arises from attachment to desires
- Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
- Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path

It's a bit like scratching an itch. When you feel an itch, is it wise to scratch it? Or better to sit back, observe that you feel an itch, and then let go of that observation? Try to concentrate on the itch for a second, see it for what it is, and then you will be able to let the sensation - the suffering - fade.

Of course while it may be simple, it's not easy. One of the attachments that have to be overcome is the attachment to the ego, which leads among other things to fear of death. How to deal with that? And even the simplicity is deceptive; maybe some itches are meant to be scratched. For instance, is all ambition bad? Should we scorn all material wealth? Should we burn all our clothes, leave our loved ones and live in the forest like hermits etc etc

I guess if it really was that simple there wouldn't have been millions of pages written about it...An important tool in overcoming suffering, as stated in the noble truths, is the noble eightfold path, namely: right understanding, right intention, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration...when properly internalized, these should give more understanding and insight into how to overcome the attachments. Meditation for instance would fall under right concentration.