Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#21  Postby Tim Danaher » Jun 07, 2011 7:14 pm

This is all of the top of my head, but isn't one of the findings of relativity theory that, for a photon, space and time have no meaning? From a photon's perspective, it's everywhere and 'everywhen'. It takes no 'time' to go from A to B and so, for the photon, there's no 'distance' from A to B, which would mean that for the photons in the DS experiment, from their frame of reference, they're all going through the slits 'simultaneously'... I dunno...
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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#22  Postby twistor59 » Jun 07, 2011 7:43 pm

Tim Danaher wrote:This is all of the top of my head, but isn't one of the findings of relativity theory that, for a photon, space and time have no meaning? From a photon's perspective, it's everywhere and 'everywhen'. It takes no 'time' to go from A to B and so, for the photon, there's no 'distance' from A to B, which would mean that for the photons in the DS experiment, from their frame of reference, they're all going through the slits 'simultaneously'... I dunno...


The mystery with the double slit experiment is that, even when you fire one photon at a time, they show interference, so each photon "knows" about both slits. However, when you look at them to see if they did indeed go through both slits or not, the whole photon is measured to be at one slot or the other, never at both (and of course the measurement makes the interference pattern disappear). If you feel that the photon's lack of experiencing proper time has something to do with this mystery, it's useful to remember that you get the same effect with electrons, which certainly do experience proper time.
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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#23  Postby Tim Danaher » Jun 07, 2011 9:20 pm

twistor59 wrote:
Tim Danaher wrote:This is all of the top of my head, but isn't one of the findings of relativity theory that, for a photon, space and time have no meaning? From a photon's perspective, it's everywhere and 'everywhen'. It takes no 'time' to go from A to B and so, for the photon, there's no 'distance' from A to B, which would mean that for the photons in the DS experiment, from their frame of reference, they're all going through the slits 'simultaneously'... I dunno...


The mystery with the double slit experiment is that, even when you fire one photon at a time, they show interference, so each photon "knows" about both slits. However, when you look at them to see if they did indeed go through both slits or not, the whole photon is measured to be at one slot or the other, never at both (and of course the measurement makes the interference pattern disappear). If you feel that the photon's lack of experiencing proper time has something to do with this mystery, it's useful to remember that you get the same effect with electrons, which certainly do experience proper time.


Ah, true, and helium atoms, IIRC...
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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#24  Postby twistor59 » Jun 10, 2011 6:50 pm

Did anyone else hear Mitch Benn's rap about The U. Toronto Experiment/quantum mechanics/weak measurements tonight on The Now Show ?

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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#25  Postby C. Cochran » Jun 15, 2011 3:45 pm

Is it a crime to speculate? >.<
As Tim said earlier, proper time and proper space could have something to do with it, but it seems to me that it would probably have more to do with proper space.

I wouldn't read this, I was being more of a writer than a rational mind.
What i mean is that every particle is in one position in space at one time, atleast classically. My overactive imagination brings up the possibilty that at each probablistic position of a photon along its trajectory, it creates a virtual particle. Of course virtual particles don't exist for very long which ties in proper time. If the particle thinks it is everywhere at everywhen, then the virtual particle would sort of act like a "real" particle seeing as how at the next instant of time another virtual particle would exist in it's place.

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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#26  Postby cavarka9 » Jun 18, 2011 6:01 pm

ah, the doule slit exp, how many versions do we have now!. And how many interpretations do we have now. Physics in a double slit experiment is rich I guess. I am guessing that we are going to have many more novel experiments or explanations based on it again.
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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#27  Postby Clive Durdle » Jun 18, 2011 10:48 pm

Slow down a second. Virtual particles? Oh no - that is the supernatural world in contrast to our real world.

They have discovered God.....
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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#28  Postby eric8476 » Sep 12, 2011 7:13 pm

interjection -

is the medium that electrons flow in when shoot out of a source through the slits providing wave behavior of the electrons? and does observing it when it passes through the slits interupt the medium's function. does an electron beam that shoots single electrons at a time have extra discharge when shooting the electrons? what do the elecrtons use to move in the space between the sooting device and the recording device? is this next nobel prize stuff or moot point?

enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc&feature=player_embedded
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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#29  Postby Beelzebub » Sep 15, 2011 8:44 pm

eric8476 wrote:interjection -

is the medium that electrons flow in when shoot out of a source through the slits providing wave behavior of the electrons? and does observing it when it passes through the slits interupt the medium's function. does an electron beam that shoots single electrons at a time have extra discharge when shooting the electrons? what do the elecrtons use to move in the space between the sooting device and the recording device? is this next nobel prize stuff or moot point?

enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc&feature=player_embedded


Hi Eric,
These experiments are conducted in a vacuum, any medium would tend to scatter and absorb the electron beam. Regarding light, well this was a bit of a conundrum in the 19th century - just what was 'waving'? It has been pretty conclusively shown that light (Electromagnetic radiation) doesn't need a medium to travel through (Actually, Maxwell's equations hint heavily at this - a varying magnetic field induces a varying electric field. A varying electric field induces a varying magnetic field.).

I'm not at all sure what you mean with "...an electron beam that shoots single electrons at a time have extra discharge when shooting the electrons"? Are you asking if an extra, invisible, particle is simultaneously emitted along with each individual electron, that subsequently interferes with the electron at the double-slits? What evidence is there of this? What experiment do you think could be constructed to show this? - An exercise for the reader, perhaps! :thumbup:

With regards to "...what do the elecrtons use to move in the space ...", I'm not sure what you are asking here? Classically, a particle, once set in motion, will continue until an external force impinges (Newton's first law of motion). Are you thinking that some external force must be applied continuously in order to keep the electron moving? This would be a naive view of things, to say the least!
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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#30  Postby eric8476 » Sep 25, 2011 4:53 am

Beelzebub wrote:
eric8476 wrote:interjection -

is the medium that electrons flow in when shoot out of a source through the slits providing wave behavior of the electrons? and does observing it when it passes through the slits interupt the medium's function. does an electron beam that shoots single electrons at a time have extra discharge when shooting the electrons? what do the elecrtons use to move in the space between the sooting device and the recording device? is this next nobel prize stuff or moot point?

enjoy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc&feature=player_embedded


Hi Eric,
These experiments are conducted in a vacuum, any medium would tend to scatter and absorb the electron beam. Regarding light, well this was a bit of a conundrum in the 19th century - just what was 'waving'? It has been pretty conclusively shown that light (Electromagnetic radiation) doesn't need a medium to travel through (Actually, Maxwell's equations hint heavily at this - a varying magnetic field induces a varying electric field. A varying electric field induces a varying magnetic field.).

I'm not at all sure what you mean with "...an electron beam that shoots single electrons at a time have extra discharge when shooting the electrons"? Are you asking if an extra, invisible, particle is simultaneously emitted along with each individual electron, that subsequently interferes with the electron at the double-slits? What evidence is there of this? What experiment do you think could be constructed to show this? - An exercise for the reader, perhaps! :thumbup:

With regards to "...what do the elecrtons use to move in the space ...", I'm not sure what you are asking here? Classically, a particle, once set in motion, will continue until an external force impinges (Newton's first law of motion). Are you thinking that some external force must be applied continuously in order to keep the electron moving? This would be a naive view of things, to say the least!


hi,
when the electrons are shot one at a time, is it in an beam form? that is, are each electron particle shot an independent form of the particle and without something that can be associated with each from the shooting?

the negative charge of the electron and the size of the particle is possibly effecting the movement of the particle through the slits. when water is passed through the slits the bonding forces between the h2o particles effect the motion and influence the movement of the bonded h2o particles after being narrowed down through the slits.

the negative charge of the electrons possibly carries a charged field around it of some kind or disturbs the space of the experiment when the electrons are shot through the slits and that possibly is effected when passing through the slits space creating the wave pattern.

also remember, it has been shown that photons leave a wave pattern after being observed going through the slits.
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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#31  Postby Beelzebub » Sep 25, 2011 10:02 pm

eric8476 wrote
when the electrons are shot one at a time, is it in an beam form? that is, are each electron particle shot an independent form of the particle and without something that can be associated with each from the shooting?

...I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are saying, or asking, here :?

the negative charge of the electron and the size of the particle is possibly effecting the movement of the particle through the slits. when water is passed through the slits the bonding forces between the h2o particles effect the motion and influence the movement of the bonded h2o particles after being narrowed down through the slits.

All substances exhibit wave properties - not just water and electrons. The size of the particles in the substance makes little difference. Consider the size of the slits compared with the size of the component particles. Charge too, doesn't seem to be a factor, as positive and neutral particles also create wave-like phenomena.

also remember, it has been shown that photons leave a wave pattern after being observed going through the slits.

Err...yes?
Note that photons are particles - no doubt about that at all! It's just that their integrated behaviour exhibits wave-like properties. Perhaps this is telling us more about how we define waves, rather than considering them as, somehow, fundamental?
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Re: Twin-Slits Experiment - Photons no longer...

#32  Postby eric8476 » Sep 25, 2011 11:27 pm

Beelzebub wrote:...I'm sorry, but I have no idea what you are saying, or asking, here :?


lets say if a bullet is shot from the shooting device. it's an object that has no electrical charge and has mass so there isn't an electric or magnetic force that is exerted on it, in substantial amounts to effect it's path. what does it take to shoot a single electron from a shooting device, one at a time? is it shot from a charged pool of electrons, like in an ammunition round? what i am getting at is, is there a special method to shoot an electron from a shooting device. from there you can also comment on if that special method could influence the path of the electrons after being shot.

Beelzebub wrote:All substances exhibit wave properties - not just water and electrons. The size of the particles in the substance makes little difference. Consider the size of the slits compared with the size of the component particles. Charge too, doesn't seem to be a factor, as positive and neutral particles also create wave-like phenomena.


do bullets shot from a shooting device through a slit exibit wave properties? if there are wave properties, they do not effect the path of the bullet through the slit, correct? here is an extra question, are electrons small enough to be effected by a charge that effects it's sensitivity with travelling in space while going through a slit? i.e. are the charges more influencial on an electron because of it's size?

Beelzebub wrote:Err...yes?
Note that photons are particles - no doubt about that at all! It's just that their integrated behaviour exhibits wave-like properties. Perhaps this is telling us more about how we define waves, rather than considering them as, somehow, fundamental?


do photons have and electrical or magnetic influence on them?
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