After a week of seeing several people proudly displaying cross pendants and other jewelry, I had this thought: What do they think their precious Jesus would think if he returned and saw the instrument used to torture and kill him displayed everywhere? I for one think he would become rather cross (pun intended). Seriously, what kind of masochistic, magical thinking makes christians think that the choice of trinkets and amulets are a good sign? Some sort of persecution complex introduced with the birth of christianity, or what? The more I see them, the more I find them offensive. Reflections?

Varangian wrote:After a week of seeing several people proudly displaying cross pendants and other jewelry, I had this thought: What do they think their precious Jesus would think if he returned and saw the instrument used to torture and kill him displayed everywhere? I for one think he would become rather cross (pun intended). Seriously, what kind of masochistic, magical thinking makes christians think that the choice of trinkets and amulets are a good sign? Some sort of persecution complex introduced with the birth of christianity, or what? The more I see them, the more I find them offensive. Reflections?

Actually as a Christian, I had that same exact problem. I also took it a step further and wondered if it was not idolatry. But the answer that happened was one which modern Christians hardly follow. The reason why cross jewelry is not sinful, is because its representative of the Bible verse "taking up your daily cross." As for it not being an idol, idolatry is simply the worship of any worldly item. As long as a Christian is not praying to the cross he or she wears around the neck then they are fine. But it's purpose is to serve as a reminder for them to 1) remember the punishment that Christ willingly went through and that 2) Christians should die to their old self on that same cross, and rise like Christ did. Theology.

But the cross should not be valued as magical or special. What are vampires going to suddenly be real as well?

willhud9 wrote:As for it not being an idol, idolatry is simply the worship of any worldly item. As long as a Christian is not praying to the cross he or she wears around the neck then they are fine.

How about focusing on a cross/crucifix while you pray? Or venerating icons/stations of the cross?

If Jesus were miraculously reborn, I suspect he'd be more worried about the flawed old Earth still being around 2,000 years after Yahweh was supposed to cleanse it than he would some unfortunate jewelry.

As Christianity is all about Christ, a theological fiction who's quite different from the man Jesus, the cross is a fitting symbol. Aesthetically, I prefer the chi-rho or the fish, but can't deny the cross' power. More powerful still when it's a crucifix: if you're going to build a salvation faith around death and rebirth, best feature the thing you're confronting.

Or ya could just quote Bill Hicks.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17lNs9EFOYI[/youtube]

Varangian wrote:After a week of seeing several people proudly displaying cross pendants and other jewelry, I had this thought: What do they think their precious Jesus would think if he returned and saw the instrument used to torture and kill him displayed everywhere? I for one think he would become rather cross (pun intended). Seriously, what kind of masochistic, magical thinking makes christians think that the choice of trinkets and amulets are a good sign? Some sort of persecution complex introduced with the birth of christianity, or what? The more I see them, the more I find them offensive. Reflections?

It reminds me of criticisms made by Celsus against Christians 1800 years ago, as recorded by Origen:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... en166.html

[Celsus writes:] "And in all their writings (is mention made) of the tree of life, and a resurrection of the flesh by means of the 'tree,' because, I imagine, their teacher was nailed to a cross, and was a carpenter by craft; so that if he had chanced to have been cast from a precipice, or thrust into a pit, or suffocated by hanging, or had been a leather-cutter, or stone-cutter, or worker in iron, there would have been (invented) a precipice of life beyond the heavens, or a pit of resurrection, or a cord of immortality, or a blessed stone, or an iron of love, or a sacred leather! Now what old woman would not be ashamed to utter such things in a whisper, even when making stories to lull an infant to sleep?"

willhud9 wrote:

Varangian wrote:After a week of seeing several people proudly displaying cross pendants and other jewelry, I had this thought: What do they think their precious Jesus would think if he returned and saw the instrument used to torture and kill him displayed everywhere? I for one think he would become rather cross (pun intended). Seriously, what kind of masochistic, magical thinking makes christians think that the choice of trinkets and amulets are a good sign? Some sort of persecution complex introduced with the birth of christianity, or what? The more I see them, the more I find them offensive. Reflections?

Actually as a Christian, I had that same exact problem. I also took it a step further and wondered if it was not idolatry. But the answer that happened was one which modern Christians hardly follow. The reason why cross jewelry is not sinful, is because its representative of the Bible verse "taking up your daily cross." As for it not being an idol, idolatry is simply the worship of any worldly item. As long as a Christian is not praying to the cross he or she wears around the neck then they are fine. But it's purpose is to serve as a reminder for them to 1) remember the punishment that Christ willingly went through and that 2) Christians should die to their old self on that same cross, and rise like Christ did. Theology.

But the cross should not be valued as magical or special. What are vampires going to suddenly be real as well?

The emblem of the cross is most hideous. First of all the Church writers claimed the Jews caused Jesus, the Child of a Ghost, to be crucified which was a LIE.

The Jesus of the NT did NOT exist.

Secondly, if Jesus was seen alive after he was crucified then he did NOT die. The Jews did NOT cause the death of Jesus after all.

If you were to read Josephus the cross would have been a most terrifying thing for Jews.

"Wars of the Jews" 5

....So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies....

dejuror wrote:

willhud9 wrote:

Varangian wrote:After a week of seeing several people proudly displaying cross pendants and other jewelry, I had this thought: What do they think their precious Jesus would think if he returned and saw the instrument used to torture and kill him displayed everywhere? I for one think he would become rather cross (pun intended). Seriously, what kind of masochistic, magical thinking makes christians think that the choice of trinkets and amulets are a good sign? Some sort of persecution complex introduced with the birth of christianity, or what? The more I see them, the more I find them offensive. Reflections?

Actually as a Christian, I had that same exact problem. I also took it a step further and wondered if it was not idolatry. But the answer that happened was one which modern Christians hardly follow. The reason why cross jewelry is not sinful, is because its representative of the Bible verse "taking up your daily cross." As for it not being an idol, idolatry is simply the worship of any worldly item. As long as a Christian is not praying to the cross he or she wears around the neck then they are fine. But it's purpose is to serve as a reminder for them to 1) remember the punishment that Christ willingly went through and that 2) Christians should die to their old self on that same cross, and rise like Christ did. Theology.

But the cross should not be valued as magical or special. What are vampires going to suddenly be real as well?

The emblem of the cross is most hideous. First of all the Church writers claimed the Jews caused Jesus, the Child of a Ghost, to be crucified which was a LIE.

The Jesus of the NT did NOT exist.

Secondly, if Jesus was seen alive after he was crucified then he did NOT die. The Jews did NOT cause the death of Jesus after all.

If you were to read Josephus the cross would have been a most terrifying thing for Jews.

"Wars of the Jews" 5

....So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies....

Essentially blah blah blah, take it to the HJ thread. The question was if Jesus came today would he be disgusted of the crosses people wear.

Of course, Jesus of NT did not exist, of course the theology is bs, but we are not talking about whether or not he really existed, we are talking about if he did what would his reaction be. As for the cross being nasty, yes I am quite aware that crucifixion was a nasty way to die.

"I was naked. What's with the loincloth ?"

willhud9 wrote:

dejuror wrote:

willhud9 wrote:

Actually as a Christian, I had that same exact problem. I also took it a step further and wondered if it was not idolatry. But the answer that happened was one which modern Christians hardly follow. The reason why cross jewelry is not sinful, is because its representative of the Bible verse "taking up your daily cross." As for it not being an idol, idolatry is simply the worship of any worldly item. As long as a Christian is not praying to the cross he or she wears around the neck then they are fine. But it's purpose is to serve as a reminder for them to 1) remember the punishment that Christ willingly went through and that 2) Christians should die to their old self on that same cross, and rise like Christ did. Theology.

But the cross should not be valued as magical or special. What are vampires going to suddenly be real as well?

The emblem of the cross is most hideous. First of all the Church writers claimed the Jews caused Jesus, the Child of a Ghost, to be crucified which was a LIE.

The Jesus of the NT did NOT exist.

Secondly, if Jesus was seen alive after he was crucified then he did NOT die. The Jews did NOT cause the death of Jesus after all.

If you were to read Josephus the cross would have been a most terrifying thing for Jews.

"Wars of the Jews" 5

....So the soldiers, out of the wrath and hatred they bore the Jews, nailed those they caught, one after one way, and another after another, to the crosses, by way of jest, when their multitude was so great, that room was wanting for the crosses, and crosses wanting for the bodies....

Essentially blah blah blah, take it to the HJ thread. The question was if Jesus came today would he be disgusted of the crosses people wear.

Of course, Jesus of NT did not exist, of course the theology is bs, but we are not talking about whether or not he really existed, we are talking about if he did what would his reaction be. As for the cross being nasty, yes I am quite aware that crucifixion was a nasty way to die.

What!!!!

You think your Jesus would have loved to see what is written in the writings of Josephus about the THOUSANDS of Jews that were crucified?

You think the gruesome crucifixions of Jews are BLAH, BLAH, BLAH?

The cross would have been a most awful and terrifying emblem to Jews.

"Wars of the Jews" 2

....But Varus sent a part of his army into the country, against those that had been the authors of this commotion, and as they caught great numbers of them, those that appeared to have been the least concerned in these tumults he put into custody, but such as were the most guilty he crucified; these were in number about two thousand...

dejuror, there's no one denying that crucifixion was a nasty way to die, or that it was used extensively. The topic of this thread is why such a symbol is seen as important, when it is an amulet depicting a tool for execution.

Since Jesus was most probably put to death under Roman law because he upset Pilate - no matter what later Christians say - then I think that Jesus would be really pissed-off at people worshipping him depicted hanging from a cross at the moment of death. And not only that, a religion invented in his name with that self-same cross as its emblem would be anathema to him.

Link to a thread with a similar subject matter, i.e. crucifixion
Romans, Jews & Stoning

It seems pretty clear to me that veneration of the Cross has New Testament support.

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

And the Cross sure sounds like "foolishness" to the people of this thread. We must be doing something right.

And that quote proves exactly what? Does it say that Xians should walk around, flashing crucifixes?

Alan B wrote:Since Jesus was most probably put to death under Roman law because he upset Pilate - no matter what later Christians say - then I think that Jesus would be really pissed-off at people worshipping him depicted hanging from a cross at the moment of death. And not only that, a religion invented in his name with that self-same cross as its emblem would be anathema to him....

Well, well, well. Pilate found NO fault with Jesus in the NT. There is no source of antiquity that show that Jesus upset Pilate.

Now, if Jesus was human and a Jew he would have probably helped to STONE NT Jesus to DEATH and would NOT wear the emblem of the cross.

NT Jesus was a BLASPHEMER and based on Hebrew Scripture blasphemers should be STONED.

Le 24:16 -

And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death. ..

Now, the Jews don't have STONES as emblems of their religion but the Romans used the Cross as a most magnificent emblem of their religion and it must have TERRIFIED the Jews.

This is most barbarous.

Either you hang the cross on your body or your body be hanged on a cross.

What kind of religion is this?

Well, well, well. Pilate found NO fault with Jesus in the NT because the episode was conveniently invented by by later authors. The Bible 'stories' were written many years after the event and were not based on any eye-witness accounts that we know of. There are no records (Roman or otherwise) available to us that even indicate that Pilate ever met Jesus, so the NT version could be pure invention, a whitewash to appease the authorities in Rome in the light of a growing Christian community in Rome itself.
As a historical source, the NT is not very reliable, so to quote this or that passage as 'historical' or 'evidence' for an argument without corrobative evidence is largely meaningless.

What would Jesus say? "Oy vey, already, what's with the crucifixes? What schlemiel thought that would be a fitting symbol for my religion? Those shmoks can kish m'in toukhes!" Or something like that. Then he'd go to his mother's house for some chicken soup.

chairman bill wrote:What would Jesus say? "Oy vey, already, what's with the crucifixes? What schlemiel thought that would be a fitting symbol for my religion? Those shmoks can kish m'in toukhes!" Or something like that. Then he'd go to his mother's house for some chicken soup.

chairman bill wrote:What would Jesus say? "Oy vey, already, what's with the crucifixes? What schlemiel thought that would be a fitting symbol for my religion? Those shmoks can kish m'in toukhes!" Or something like that. Then he'd go to his mother's house for some chicken soup.

chairman bill wrote:What would Jesus say? "Oy vey, already, what's with the crucifixes? What schlemiel thought that would be a fitting symbol for my religion? Those shmoks can kish m'in toukhes!" Or something like that. Then he'd go to his mother's house for some chicken soup.

Nah.


"BRAAAINS!"