Judaism, at least to many Jews, is more than a religion; it's a race, or an otherwise inherited cultural identity, independent of actual beliefs. That's why there can be "secular Jews" like Christopher Hitchens and Jerry Coyne, and in fact it's just become an officially available status in Israel.

This definition of Judaism is sorely tested by Jews for Jesus, apparently an organisation of self-proclaimed Jews with Christian beliefs. I wonder though, why exactly are members of JFJ overwhelmingly rejected as Jews by the Jewish community? Is it the Christian beliefs themselves, or is it their transparent campaign to convert Jews and everyone else to evangelical Christianity?

If the answer is the latter, and there can in principle be a Christian Jew, how far can you stretch this? Could there be a Hindu Jew? A Muslim Jew? A Wiccan Jew?

Culture. Cherry pickin, is apparently, the future. Lets hope, for the good of humanity, we are good gatherers.

SmartLX wrote:Judaism, at least to many Jews, is more than a religion; it's a race, or an otherwise inherited cultural identity, independent of actual beliefs. That's why there can be "secular Jews" like Christopher Hitchens and Jerry Coyne, and in fact it's just become an officially available status in Israel.

This definition of Judaism is sorely tested by Jews for Jesus, apparently an organisation of self-proclaimed Jews with Christian beliefs. I wonder though, why exactly are members of JFJ overwhelmingly rejected as Jews by the Jewish community? Is it the Christian beliefs themselves, or is it their transparent campaign to convert Jews and everyone else to evangelical Christianity?

If the answer is the latter, and there can in principle be a Christian Jew, how far can you stretch this? Could there be a Hindu Jew? A Muslim Jew? A Wiccan Jew?

Not that it follows in any way from the statements in the previous paragraphs, but the answer to the last three questions is "yes."

Google Rabbi Sherwin Wine. An important figure in this area; one of the founders of Humanistic Judaism. And, I'm proud to say, a mentor and close friend.

(He died in 2007, and I still can't get used to talking about him in the past tense.)

Edited to add: Several years ago, the podcast Skepticality interviewed me about Rabbi Wine. It was not one of my better public appearances; I was plagued by a ferocious sinus condition that made me clear my throat a lot. Swoopy was very kind about it though, and conducted a good interview. Despite feeling distracted by my own physical nonsense, I think I managed to convey at least some of Sherwin's ideas and what he was like as a person. I think it's still up on their website if you're interested.

Also, videos of some of Sherwin's own lectures (he was a great public speaker) can be found online - including one at an atheist/humanist conference at Harvard not too long before his death. In it he explains some of the tenets of Humanistic Judaism.

As far as I know (I'm not a Jew myself, so I my view at this might be erroneous) Judaism is about the life here and now, on earth. What happens beyond the life we live now is not part of the faith, in fact, whether or not there is an afterlife, or even if god exists are matters of private opinion, rather than some sort of official doctrine.
It's an aspect I really quite like about Judaism, it's OK when people have radically different opinions regarding 'core issues', it's part of their faith to leave such vast amounts of room for disagreement. Christianity and Islam are radically different in this: they live or die by interpreting their faith correctly, that's probably why there's so many religious wars in these two faiths when Judaism is relatively peaceful (although those Ultra-ultra-orthodox are rather creepy).

JoeB wrote:As far as I know (I'm not a Jew myself, so I my view at this might be erroneous) Judaism is about the life here and now, on earth. What happens beyond the life we live now is not part of the faith, in fact, whether or not there is an afterlife, or even if god exists are matters of private opinion, rather than some sort of official doctrine.
It's an aspect I really quite like about Judaism, it's OK when people have radically different opinions

The concept of an afterlife came quite late to Judaism. Rabbi Hillel stated that the doctrine of an afterlife is a "must believe in," but a lot of Jews don't take that seriously.

But there's another aspect to Judaism, which is being part of an extended family (I wouldn't go so far as to call it an ethnicity, though there are quite a few genetic markers for Ashkenazi Jews). If you're a Jew, and you find other Jews, you're family. It's a lot like what Esperanto-speakers or Hippies or Juggalos tried to accomplish, except that it works and has done so for thousands of years.

SmartLX wrote:Judaism, at least to many Jews, is more than a religion; it's a race, or an otherwise inherited cultural identity, independent of actual beliefs. That's why there can be "secular Jews" like Christopher Hitchens and Jerry Coyne, and in fact it's just become an officially available status in Israel.

This definition of Judaism is sorely tested by Jews for Jesus, apparently an organisation of self-proclaimed Jews with Christian beliefs. I wonder though, why exactly are members of JFJ overwhelmingly rejected as Jews by the Jewish community? Is it the Christian beliefs themselves, or is it their transparent campaign to convert Jews and everyone else to evangelical Christianity?

A Jew that joins any form of Christianity is considered to have left the fold of Judaism (why that is so, I will come back to in bit), and will thereby - by orthodox and conservative halakha, at least, lose many Jewish communal rights - basically, he no longer is a member of the Jewish community. He is, at the time, not considered (functionally) a Jew. However, a few rights do remain with him - among other, the rights to teshuvah, repentance. As such, if such a Jew leaves Christianity, he will be considered a Jew without having to convert or anything of the sort. Also, the children of a Jewess in a Christian church would be considered Jews even if they didn't convert - altho' an uncircumcised boy that does teshuvah would be required to go through a brit milah.

JFJ has a further strange problem - 80% of all messianic Jews have no Jewish background. They are gentiles that figure they like the appearance of Judaism, but dislike the requirements for being a Jew, and so they go there instead. This claim isn't even controversial - Messianic Jewish organizations, secular researchers in comparative religion departments and Jewish organizations all agree on this claim.

If the answer is the latter, and there can in principle be a Christian Jew, how far can you stretch this? Could there be a Hindu Jew? A Muslim Jew? A Wiccan Jew?

Muslim Jews have existed - since Judaism and Islam in many ways are more similar, in fact, a Jew that observes Islamic precepts doesn't violate core concepts of Judaism (unlike the Christian Jew). However, in modern times, a Muslim Jew may very well be excluded from the fold due to disagreements between Jewish and Moslem communities - affiliating too closely with the other community would be seen as disloyalty or whatever, but as Islam doesn't require observance of the sabbath nor is its dietary laws as strict as those of judaism, and as these are considered important outwards signs of being a Jew, that might be enough for the orthodox to exclude a muslim Jew. The main core concept here is that of Idolatry. Allah and the Jewish God are, by Jewish law, compatible - whereas the Christian idea of a God who is also a man and who is three in one is iffy, and not acceptable by halakhic standards. Likewise, a Hindu Jew would probably be excluded from the fold, but afforded the option to repent. I suspect Wiccan practice also speaks of gods and goddesses, or has other problematic ideas. (Whereas e.g. atheism isn't idolatry; sure, it's seen as less than desirable by many orthodox Jews, or as sinful by many, but not as strong a violation of core concepts. Especially if one keeps worshiping the Jewish god despite not believing in him, one can even be part of orthodox Judaism without any beliefs.)

In the case of outward Jewish practices, the Messianic Jews tend to observe many of them - the sabbath, kosher (some do, at least), even tefillin and mezuzos and tallis, but as they violate a very central precept, the most central one - idolatry - they are excluded. A Muslim Jew would probably be excluded for nonadherence to the more important outwards ones, e.g. intentional and conscious rejection of the sabbath and kosher rules.

Given all this - I don't see how James1v's post, especially "Cherry pickin, is apparently, the future." has anything to do with the original post.

orpheus wrote:Google Rabbi Sherwin Wine. An important figure in this area; one of the founders of Humanistic Judaism. And, I'm proud to say, a mentor and close friend.

(He died in 2007, and I still can't get used to talking about him in the past tense.)

Edited to add: Several years ago, the podcast Skepticality interviewed me about Rabbi Wine. It was not one of my better public appearances; I was plagued by a ferocious sinus condition that made me clear my throat a lot. Swoopy was very kind about it though, and conducted a good interview. Despite feeling distracted by my own physical nonsense, I think I managed to convey at least some of Sherwin's ideas and what he was like as a person. I think it's still up on their website if you're interested.

Also, videos of some of Sherwin's own lectures (he was a great public speaker) can be found online - including one at an atheist/humanist conference at Harvard not too long before his death. In it he explains some of the tenets of Humanistic Judaism.

Interesting. I'd never heard of him. But then, since becoming an atheist, I haven't kept up so much with such things. If I were to join some kind of congregation, his would be the kind I'd join