"Cold Fusion"

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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#61  Postby epepke » Jun 23, 2011 7:46 am

rainbow wrote:They claim to be building a full scale plant that will be operational this year.

Question is if they are fake, what do they hope to gain by this?


Investors.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#62  Postby rainbow » Jun 23, 2011 8:19 am

epepke wrote:
rainbow wrote:They claim to be building a full scale plant that will be operational this year.

Question is if they are fake, what do they hope to gain by this?


Investors.

The plant will be built in Greece:
An article from the Greek website energypress Greek company Defkalion Green Technologies, SA is preparing to install a 1 MW power plant which uses the “energy catalyzer” technology invented by Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi.
According to the article, the company has said that this power plant will be used to power a factory in Xanthi, Greece where Defkalion will build up to 300,000 Rossi/Focardi E-cat units per year for the Greek and Balkan markets. The project is projected create 215 permanent jobs at the plant. There are also plans for future expansion for building larger power units.
The article also notes that there are significant deposits of nickel in Greece. The Rossi/Focardi device uses nickel, hydrogen and a secret catalyst to cause a reaction in which, according to those who been involved in testing, nickel is transmuted into copper generating large amounts of energy in the process.
The original article can be found here.

http://www.freeenergytimes.com/2011/03/ ... atalyzers/
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#63  Postby newolder » Jun 23, 2011 8:44 am

Greeks are fed up with austerity, recession and debt.

Many analysts are sceptical that Greece can dig its way out of this hole, even with substantial help from its partners.

The government still believes it can, but it needs to convince public opinion that it is worth the effort.

If it fails, a Greek default could send the rest of the eurozone, and the wider financial world, into dangerous territory.

BBC source
Greek investor = oxymoron? :ask:
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#64  Postby rainbow » Jun 23, 2011 2:49 pm

Greek company Defkalion Green Technologies s.a. will be holding a news conference on Thursday June 23rd at 14:30 to share more information about their plans to commercialize Andrea Rossi’s energy catalyzer (E-Cat) technology. The full press release can be found below:
GREECE's ANSWER TO THE INTERNATIONAL CRISIS

HYDROGEN & NICKEL EXOTHERMIC REACTION

CHEAP, CLEAN & GREEN ENERGY

Thursday 23rd June, 2011 @ 14:30
Municipality of Palaio Faliro
Terpsihoris 51 & Artemidos
Today, there is great pessimism regarding the future energy needs of our planet. Energy will soon become universally cheap, clean and readily usable.

Andrea Rossi and Sergio Focardi have discovered and patented a technology that will change the world’s energy field. This technology will be made commercially available by Defkalion Green Technologies s.a., a Greek company.



By combining Hydrogen and Nickel to create an exothermic reaction (at room temperatures and in a device that can be safely placed in households and also industry) heat is emitted on a 24-hour basis. This energy is produced at a fraction of the cost in comparison to currently available energy sources, it is clean and totally green.
Furthermore, using conventional, readily available third-party technologies, the heat can also be used to produce electricity.



Defkalion Green Technologies s.a. has secured exclusive distribution rights for the entire world, except for the USA and military applications. It will start production and first distribution of its products from its factory in Xanthi for the Greek and Balkan markets, initially. Two more factories are scheduled within 2012. International sales are already strong in demand, which will spur exports.




Press Release from today.
:ask:
Can someone debunk this?
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#65  Postby Sovereign » Jun 23, 2011 2:55 pm

rainbow wrote:They claim to be building a full scale plant that will be operational this year.

Question is if they are fake, what do they hope to gain by this?


Get startup funding from gullible lenders then run. Maybe they'll join the Department of Homeland Security then crash a Ferrari Enzo several months later. Wouldn't be the first time that's happened.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#66  Postby twistor59 » Jun 23, 2011 3:19 pm

The article also notes that there are significant deposits of nickel in Greece. The Rossi/Focardi device uses nickel, hydrogen and a secret catalyst to cause a reaction in which, according to those who been involved in testing, nickel is transmuted into copper generating large amounts of energy in the process.


But if this really is fusion, where are the gamma rays ?

Also can it really be the case that people are investing enough to build a full scale plant without having commissioned an independent team of scientists (and magicians) to verify it ? If they haven't taken those precautions, they must be as thick as pigshit.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#67  Postby atrasicarius » Jun 24, 2011 2:07 am

rainbow wrote:

Press Release from today.
:ask:
Can someone debunk this?


Well, we'll see what they have to say at their press conference. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if they were just reacting nickel and hydrogen or something.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#68  Postby rainbow » Jun 25, 2011 9:47 am

atrasicarius wrote:
rainbow wrote:

Press Release from today.
:ask:
Can someone debunk this?


Well, we'll see what they have to say at their press conference. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if they were just reacting nickel and hydrogen or something.


The claim is that it transmutes nickel to copper.
...which is a problem since nickel is more expensive than copper.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#69  Postby Berthold » Jun 25, 2011 2:31 pm

rainbow wrote:The claim is that it transmutes nickel to copper.
...which is a problem since nickel is more expensive than copper.

Well, coal is more expensive than CO2.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#70  Postby atrasicarius » Jun 26, 2011 10:45 pm

rainbow wrote:
atrasicarius wrote:
rainbow wrote:

Press Release from today.
:ask:
Can someone debunk this?


Well, we'll see what they have to say at their press conference. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if they were just reacting nickel and hydrogen or something.


The claim is that it transmutes nickel to copper.
...which is a problem since nickel is more expensive than copper.


Lol, physics fail. Fusion reactions are endothermic for all elements above iron. It's literally impossible to get energy from turning nickle into copper.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#71  Postby klazmon » Jun 27, 2011 1:51 am

atrasicarius wrote:
rainbow wrote:
atrasicarius wrote:

Well, we'll see what they have to say at their press conference. I wouldn't be surprised, though, if they were just reacting nickel and hydrogen or something.


The claim is that it transmutes nickel to copper.
...which is a problem since nickel is more expensive than copper.


Lol, physics fail. Fusion reactions are endothermic for all elements above iron. It's literally impossible to get energy from turning nickle into copper.


:thumbup: A slight spanner in the works wrt binding energy per nucleon. ie a bit tricky to extract energy if you are moving to the right of anything from 56Fe onwards on this chart :lol: .

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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#72  Postby rainbow » Jun 27, 2011 10:30 am

Sure. The 'reaction' is not however supposed to be between nickel and nickel(endothermic), but between nickel and hydrogen(possibly exothermic)
...but then they're not exactly showing the reaction mechanism here, so who knows?
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#73  Postby atrasicarius » Jun 27, 2011 11:56 am

rainbow wrote:Sure. The 'reaction' is not however supposed to be between nickel and nickel(endothermic), but between nickel and hydrogen(possibly exothermic)
...but then they're not exactly showing the reaction mechanism here, so who knows?


IIRC, if the end result is anything larger than iron, the reaction is endothermic, so it shouldn't matter. Iron is the ideal state that nuclear reactions always want to move towards.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#74  Postby klazmon » Jun 27, 2011 10:15 pm

atrasicarius wrote:
rainbow wrote:Sure. The 'reaction' is not however supposed to be between nickel and nickel(endothermic), but between nickel and hydrogen(possibly exothermic)
...but then they're not exactly showing the reaction mechanism here, so who knows?


IIRC, if the end result is anything larger than iron, the reaction is endothermic, so it shouldn't matter. Iron is the ideal state that nuclear reactions always want to move towards.


You would have to end up with an isotope of Cu with a greater binding energy per nucleon than the starting isotope of Ni. As you say, the details of the reaction don't matter at all. Only the end result matters with respect to it being exothermic or endothermic.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#75  Postby rainbow » Jun 28, 2011 11:47 am

klazmon wrote:
atrasicarius wrote:
rainbow wrote:Sure. The 'reaction' is not however supposed to be between nickel and nickel(endothermic), but between nickel and hydrogen(possibly exothermic)
...but then they're not exactly showing the reaction mechanism here, so who knows?


IIRC, if the end result is anything larger than iron, the reaction is endothermic, so it shouldn't matter. Iron is the ideal state that nuclear reactions always want to move towards.


You would have to end up with an isotope of Cu with a greater binding energy per nucleon than the starting isotope of Ni. As you say, the details of the reaction don't matter at all. Only the end result matters with respect to it being exothermic or endothermic.

Yes, but perhaps with less binding energy than one proton plus one nickel nucleus.
If we take the heaviest stable isotope of nickel - Ni64 and added a proton we'd get Cu65, not so?
Question: Would the mass of Cu65 be more or less than Ni64 plus a proton?
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#76  Postby klazmon » Jun 28, 2011 10:33 pm

rainbow wrote:
klazmon wrote:
atrasicarius wrote:

IIRC, if the end result is anything larger than iron, the reaction is endothermic, so it shouldn't matter. Iron is the ideal state that nuclear reactions always want to move towards.


You would have to end up with an isotope of Cu with a greater binding energy per nucleon than the starting isotope of Ni. As you say, the details of the reaction don't matter at all. Only the end result matters with respect to it being exothermic or endothermic.

Yes, but perhaps with less binding energy than one proton plus one nickel nucleus.
If we take the heaviest stable isotope of nickel - Ni64 and added a proton we'd get Cu65, not so?
Question: Would the mass of Cu65 be more or less than Ni64 plus a proton?


This table should help:

http://physics.nist.gov/cgi-bin/Compositions/stand_alone.pl
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#77  Postby rainbow » Jun 29, 2011 7:32 am

Thanks.
It would appear that Cu65 is lighter than Ni64+proton by 0.008Da. The reaction if it were possible - would be exothermic.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#78  Postby atrasicarius » Jun 29, 2011 8:09 am

rainbow wrote:Thanks.
It would appear that Cu65 is lighter than Ni64+proton by 0.008Da. The reaction if it were possible - would be exothermic.


You're not taking the activation cost into account. Getting the two atoms to fuse will take more energy than it will produce. That's why no fusion reaction with a product heavier than iron can produce net energy.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#79  Postby rainbow » Jun 29, 2011 10:04 am

atrasicarius wrote:
rainbow wrote:Thanks.
It would appear that Cu65 is lighter than Ni64+proton by 0.008Da. The reaction if it were possible - would be exothermic.


You're not taking the activation cost into account. Getting the two atoms to fuse will take more energy than it will produce. That's why no fusion reaction with a product heavier than iron can produce net energy.

There is no activation 'cost'. Whatever activation energy is required is returned as the products return to their ground state.
Overall if there is a loss of mass, there must be energy produced.
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Re: "Cold Fusion"

#80  Postby klazmon » Jun 29, 2011 10:41 am

Rainbow is correct here. The reason this can happen is that the binding energy of some isotopes are a little out of the overall sequence. Note that the graph I posted earlier is not strictly smooth but zig zags a bit for varying isotopes. Of course this doesn't say much about the device being discussed except that it isn't totally ruled out by basic binding energy considerations. If I am reading that table correctly though, it suggests that Ni (I presume as found on Earth) has less than one percent 64Ni.
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