Dark Souls.

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Re: Dark Souls.

#441  Postby Animavore » May 31, 2016 4:04 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:
Animavore wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Do you really think that the world, the lore, the system, the design is so unimportant that DS is worthless without the level of challenge that you prefer?


But the challenge is built into the world. It's into the sneaky enemy placement and traps. Even if you buffed players and debuffed enemies people would still be getting owned by traps and pitfalls. It's challenging by design. So we don't think those elements are unimportant; on the contrary they are necessary.

But there are other things you can change besides damage amount, as you yourself pointed out with NG+. If they change those things to make the game more challenging, wouldn't changing them in the opposite direction make it less challenging? You're right about insta-death traps, though only on the first time you play. After that, it's the frustration of having to play an area over and over again because you didn't do it perfectly last time. I can understand why that's something that's appealing to you, and also why some folks just want to be able to play through the game. I don't see justification for the point that reducing that element of frustration ruins the whole game, and I don't see how reducing the challenge in an optional way is the same as making the game not challenging at all.

Is it really as easy as just going the opposite way than NG+ though? Serious question, I'm not a programmer or game designer, but From Software themselves, in an interview I can't find, said that its difficulty is written into its DNA and making it easier isn't as simple as people think.

I don't know if that's nonsense or not. And even if it was, I don't like the to tell artists how to do their job. If the makers of Souls think that making it easier goes against their artistic vision I can't argue against that when their vision is realised so well. Might be a different story if it had a cheap difficulty borne out of bad design and broken mechanics.
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Re: Dark Souls.

#442  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 31, 2016 4:20 pm

Animavore wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:
Animavore wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Do you really think that the world, the lore, the system, the design is so unimportant that DS is worthless without the level of challenge that you prefer?


But the challenge is built into the world. It's into the sneaky enemy placement and traps. Even if you buffed players and debuffed enemies people would still be getting owned by traps and pitfalls. It's challenging by design. So we don't think those elements are unimportant; on the contrary they are necessary.

But there are other things you can change besides damage amount, as you yourself pointed out with NG+. If they change those things to make the game more challenging, wouldn't changing them in the opposite direction make it less challenging? You're right about insta-death traps, though only on the first time you play. After that, it's the frustration of having to play an area over and over again because you didn't do it perfectly last time. I can understand why that's something that's appealing to you, and also why some folks just want to be able to play through the game. I don't see justification for the point that reducing that element of frustration ruins the whole game, and I don't see how reducing the challenge in an optional way is the same as making the game not challenging at all.

Is it really as easy as just going the opposite way than NG+ though? Serious question, I'm not a programmer or game designer, but From Software themselves, in an interview I can't find, said that its difficulty is written into its DNA and making it easier isn't as simple as people think.

I don't know either to be honest, and I'm not saying it was necessarily easy to make NG+. They could be telling the truth, that somehow it would be much more difficult to make an easier mode, I just don't see how from my playthroughs of the first two games. Maybe the newer ones are different.

I don't know if that's nonsense or not. And even if it was, I don't like the to tell artists how to do their job. If the makers of Souls think that making it easier goes against their artistic vision I can't argue against that when their vision is realised so well. Might be a different story if it had a cheap difficulty borne out of bad design and broken mechanics.

There's definitely cheap elements to the game, like the aforementioned curse thing. I do find the long attack animations to be pretty artificial as well. I don't think it's as perfect as everyone says it is. For sure, artist's vision is king, but if your vision is to snub less obsessive players then I think they should say so rather than pretending it's impossible. They could have a much bigger audience with a version that's playable for more casual gamers, but it seems like they're doing well enough that they choose not to worry about such things. The hype about the difficulty seems to be part of the sales pitch as well.
Last edited by SafeAsMilk on May 31, 2016 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dark Souls.

#443  Postby Animavore » May 31, 2016 4:20 pm

And just for the record here's what director Hidetaka Miyazki says on Souls.

Dark Souls 3 director: it's about 'accomplishment by overcoming tremendous odds'

[snip]

Hidetaka Miyazaki: I have no intention to make the game more difficult than other titles on purpose! It's just something required to make this style of game. Ever since Demon's Souls, I've really been pursuing making games that give players a sense of accomplishment by overcoming tremendous odds. We've added new items and weapons over the course of the series, and having a certain level of difficulty adds value to those because they incentivise players to experiment more with character builds and weapon load-outs.


http://www.wired.co.uk/article/dark-sou ... -interview

At the end of the day it's Miyzaki's prerogative. If adding easy is something he thinks goes against the game's philosophy or what he is striving to do then I'm not going to argue.
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Re: Dark Souls.

#444  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 31, 2016 4:23 pm

Of course he should make the games according to his vision, I just don't buy the argument that making it easier would actually ruin the game. Obviously the game fails to incentivize some players to overcome those odds.
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Re: Dark Souls.

#445  Postby Animavore » May 31, 2016 4:32 pm

SafeAsMilk wrote:Of course he should make the games according to his vision, I just don't buy the argument that making it easier would actually ruin the game. Obviously the game fails to incentivize some players to overcome those odds.


It ruins the game if the vision of the creators of the game is "a sense of accomplishment by overcoming tremendous odds", from their perspective it ruins the game. It isn't what they set out to achieve. It would be like a director compromising an R-rated movie by being forced to make cuts by the producers which make it PG-13 just to rake in some more bucks.

Edit - obviously it may not be ruined for casuals who want to just play.
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Re: Dark Souls.

#446  Postby SafeAsMilk » May 31, 2016 5:11 pm

Animavore wrote:
SafeAsMilk wrote:Of course he should make the games according to his vision, I just don't buy the argument that making it easier would actually ruin the game. Obviously the game fails to incentivize some players to overcome those odds.


It ruins the game if the vision of the creators of the game is "a sense of accomplishment by overcoming tremendous odds", from their perspective it ruins the game. It isn't what they set out to achieve. It would be like a director compromising an R-rated movie by being forced to make cuts by the producers which make it PG-13 just to rake in some more bucks.

Edit - obviously it may not be ruined for casuals who want to just play.

But if their goal is to reach a PG-13 audience, then they've failed. If he said "This game is aimed at hardcore players, I don't care about filthy casuals overcoming the odds," then fine. But that isn't what he said at all. Tremendous odds isn't the same for everyone, it's certainly not the same between more casual players and people like you and me who've been playing most of our lives. Getting someone like my wife to want to play and get good at Dark Souls, now THAT would be a real accomplishment. Making yet another difficult game? Not so much.
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Re: Dark Souls.

#447  Postby Ironclad » May 31, 2016 10:16 pm

Just killed the wizard boss thing! :D
Going to backtrack to the giant tree boss now, try that swine again. Woot

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Re: Dark Souls.

#448  Postby Animavore » May 31, 2016 10:45 pm

I thought the wizard was harder than the tree.
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Re: Dark Souls.

#449  Postby SafeAsMilk » Jun 01, 2016 5:18 am

Of course, now this all makes me want to pull out Dark Souls again :P Think I'll go for a thief build, looks interesting and never tried it before.
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Re: Dark Souls.

#450  Postby Ironclad » Jun 01, 2016 6:50 am

Animavore wrote:I thought the wizard was harder than the tree.

I can't seem to gate in any help with tree-man, but the wizard.. easy peasy. I killed the clones fast and left him crying. Alone.
Tree-Bastard is helped by so many zombies :(

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Re: Dark Souls.

#451  Postby Animavore » Jun 01, 2016 6:55 am

There should be loads of help for the tree. Did you grind your level too high?
I used a katana for the tree. Part of the technique is to keep sticking and moving and don't use lock-on.
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Re: Dark Souls.

#452  Postby Ironclad » Jun 02, 2016 2:39 pm

I'm quite low level, maybe 20 odd. Piss poor health.
Oh, and didn't notice I needed to use ember to get npc aid..

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Re: Dark Souls.

#453  Postby Animavore » Jun 02, 2016 3:13 pm

:doh:
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Re: Dark Souls.

#454  Postby Ironclad » Jun 02, 2016 4:02 pm

FML

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Re: Dark Souls.

#455  Postby Ironclad » Jun 02, 2016 4:03 pm

Can npc help with the tree?

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Re: Dark Souls.

#456  Postby Animavore » Jun 02, 2016 4:03 pm

Did you run out of embers?
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Re: Dark Souls.

#457  Postby Ironclad » Jun 02, 2016 5:37 pm

I killed it! :D

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Re: Dark Souls.

#458  Postby Animavore » Jun 02, 2016 5:41 pm

:happydance:
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Re: Dark Souls.

#459  Postby Ironclad » Jun 02, 2016 5:57 pm

I made a cool rapier and a mean old spear, and a ring that sucks HP. My frost blade is a favorite though. I kill shit good

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Re: Dark Souls.

#460  Postby Animavore » Jun 02, 2016 5:59 pm

Ooh! Stabby. I used a katana and kept slashing.
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