Do not buy X Rebirth

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Do not buy X Rebirth

#1  Postby Rome Existed » Nov 16, 2013 8:22 am

It's a total abortion of a game.

My brother has been so excited the last few months as he's a huge X fan. I decided that since he loved those games so much, and I like simulators, that I'd buy the new one. Total waste of money.

Not only does the game have a lot of game/mission breaking bugs (which they will obviously/hopefully fix) but the design decisions in the game boggle the mind.

To make the game more accessible they've totally dumbed it down to the point that it should be illegal to call it a simulator. It's an arcade game at best. A simulator suggests functionality. In this, 1000 years in the future, there is no radar. Nothing warns you if an enemy ship is sneaking up on you until it opens fire. On the screen instead you have icons on the edge of the screen showing different icons. Unless you're directly pointing at them and manually clicked on them with the mouse it doesn't even tell you how far away they are. Come on, we invented radar before the Second World War ffs.

The universe was described as living but it's static. You can visit huge space stations but there's only a few different interiors and only a few different NPC models, who are static.

My brother is totally crushed and the official forum (not Steam) are about to burst into flames from all the hardcore fan anger.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#2  Postby UndeadDinosaur » Nov 17, 2013 5:14 pm

Rome Existed wrote:It's a total abortion of a game.


Oh my. The hysteria has even ventured onto RatSkep. :(

My brother has been so excited the last few months as he's a huge X fan. I decided that since he loved those games so much, and I like simulators, that I'd buy the new one. Total waste of money.


Fifteen hours in, and I don't feel ripped off yet.

Not only does the game have a lot of game/mission breaking bugs (which they will obviously/hopefully fix)


Par for the course with Egosoft, and yes, they always fix their games. They're a small studio, and it's simply impossible to simulate any significant percentage of potential scenarios through internal testing. Ergo, stuff ships buggy. Most of their games come out in various states of brokenness.

but the design decisions in the game boggle the mind.

To make the game more accessible they've totally dumbed it down to the point that it should be illegal to call it a simulator.


"Dumbed down" is such a loaded phrase. To whatever extent a sci-fi franchise rooted in aliens, interstellar travel, jump gates and such can be a simulator at all, Rebirth more or less fits the bill, with exception to some admittedly baffling reduction in fleet management relative to earlier games. I hope this gets expanded in a patch or mod, but it hasn't stymied my enjoyment of the game.

It's an arcade game at best.


Hyperbole at best.

A simulator suggests functionality. In this, 1000 years in the future, there is no radar. Nothing warns you if an enemy ship is sneaking up on you until it opens fire. On the screen instead you have icons on the edge of the screen showing different icons. Unless you're directly pointing at them and manually clicked on them with the mouse it doesn't even tell you how far away they are. Come on, we invented radar before the Second World War ffs.


Target tracking definitely needs some work, and the icons-instead-of-radar is a bad design choice, but this doesn't make it not a simulator.

The universe was described as living but it's static.


The universe per se is the most dynamic and lifelike in any X game to date, and arguably any space game period. It's busy, reactive and gorgeous. I'm not sure what you're looking at.

You can visit huge space stations but there's only a few different interiors and only a few different NPC models, who are static.


The interiors and NPCs are repetitive and pretty terrible, I agree.

My brother is totally crushed and the official forum (not Steam) are about to burst into flames from all the hardcore fan anger.


I've seen it, and a lot of "hardcore fans" need to get control of themselves. The vitriol is childish and ridiculous. If these people are half as familiar with the franchise as they claim to be, then surely they remember the "disastrous" condition of X3:R at release, from which many a "hardcore fan" prophesied the doom of the series.

As for the apparent dissatisfaction among these "hardcore fans" (whatever that even means) surrounding the philosophy of the game, that's just evolution. An old formula can't be changed, for better or worse, without riling up the old guard. People feel betrayed, as if they were entitled to anything in the first place, and cries of "dumbed down" and "console port" and "sell out" aren't far behind.

Egosoft needs to grow, and they need this franchise to grow. In order to do that, they need to take a long, hard look at what they've been doing since 1999 and change some things at a fundamental level. I loved the old X games, but they were convoluted and clunky and unintuitive. Rebirth is a welcome deviation, even if it isn't right yet. If the past is any indication, Egosoft will make it right eventually, and I already believe it was worth the money.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#3  Postby Rome Existed » Nov 18, 2013 3:00 am

I don't think it can be counted as a simulator if all the controls you need are found on an xbox controller. You literally have very few functions.

And waiting for the other ships in your fleet to do something is agony. If you give a trade order to your trade ship and then leave the system they'll decide to follow you and then they can't do anything ever again because they're stuck with their original order in their queue which they now can't do. What this means is during the very, very, very long tutorial if you follow the tutorial instructions you break the game and have to reload.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#4  Postby quixotecoyote » Nov 18, 2013 3:28 am

I tried playing X3: Terran Conflict but found the goofball interface too much hassle to work around on a regular enough basis to progress. If they've actually streamlined it, I may pick up Rebirth when the price comes down.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#5  Postby Rome Existed » Nov 18, 2013 3:50 am

quixotecoyote wrote:I tried playing X3: Terran Conflict but found the goofball interface too much hassle to work around on a regular enough basis to progress. If they've actually streamlined it, I may pick up Rebirth when the price comes down.


It's been steamlined to being basically non functional. Want one of your ships to fly to another sector? Too bad. You can order them to follow you or not follow you.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#6  Postby UndeadDinosaur » Nov 18, 2013 2:47 pm

Rome Existed wrote:I don't think it can be counted as a simulator if all the controls you need are found on an xbox controller. You literally have very few functions.


A simulator is defined neither by the preferred input device nor the abundance of functions relative to something else. If we're going to just arbitrarily make up attributes, then I'm hesitant to call any of the X games, or most other spaceflight titles, simulators. Their physics models are completely silly, and the economies have endless supplies of money and resources, so they succeed as neither flight nor trade sims.

Kerbal Space Program rules them all!

And waiting for the other ships in your fleet to do something is agony.


The only solution to this in previous games was to use the magical time warp feature (SETA), which I always found contrived and annoying. Good riddance to it. Ideally, you should be able to queue up orders and go do something else while they're executed, but there are sadly some limits on how this works (and some bugs) that make it inconvenient. The devs seem to be aware of this, so I expect the fleet/trade functionality to improve.

If you give a trade order to your trade ship and then leave the system they'll decide to follow you and then they can't do anything ever again because they're stuck with their original order in their queue which they now can't do. What this means is during the very, very, very long tutorial if you follow the tutorial instructions you break the game and have to reload.


All aboard the Egosoft Express, destination: Bugville. Trading in general is in a sad state right now, partly due to actual bugs and partly due to some questionable interface design choices. Seriously, dude/lady, this is not unusual, as I tried to explain in my previous post. It will be fixed/addressed/overhauled.

People pretending that this is some colossal meltdown of Rebirth compared to the old days must be wearing some heavy rose-tinted lenses.

It's been steamlined to being basically non functional. Want one of your ships to fly to another sector? Too bad. You can order them to follow you or not follow you.


That isn't really true. The "Take me to..." order can send your ship anywhere while you're docked, and then you can fly off and let it do its thing. Unfortunately, the AI sometimes breaks, so this doesn't always work as it should. Being able to just issue a variety of orders remotely and have ships carry them out is indeed a palpable bit of lack in the game right now. I don't know whether Egosoft thought their AI was so good that the player didn't need to micromanage (which would be hilariously wrong), but it's unsatisfying as-is and definitely needs some attention.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#7  Postby Strontium Dog » Nov 18, 2013 3:10 pm

UndeadDinosaur wrote:
Not only does the game have a lot of game/mission breaking bugs (which they will obviously/hopefully fix)


Par for the course with Egosoft, and yes, they always fix their games. They're a small studio, and it's simply impossible to simulate any significant percentage of potential scenarios through internal testing. Ergo, stuff ships buggy. Most of their games come out in various states of brokenness.


Isn't that what beta testing is for?
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#8  Postby UndeadDinosaur » Nov 18, 2013 5:51 pm

Strontium Dog wrote:
UndeadDinosaur wrote:
Not only does the game have a lot of game/mission breaking bugs (which they will obviously/hopefully fix)


Par for the course with Egosoft, and yes, they always fix their games. They're a small studio, and it's simply impossible to simulate any significant percentage of potential scenarios through internal testing. Ergo, stuff ships buggy. Most of their games come out in various states of brokenness.


Isn't that what beta testing is for?


Sure, but the size of the beta test is going to directly affect its utility. Small companies have a disadvantage here. I suppose Egosoft could have held an open beta, but that's often a double-edged sword for game publishers.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#9  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Nov 19, 2013 8:24 am

Sorry Rome but this game actually sounds really interesting, the problems you listed aside I think I would still have a lot of fun playing the game. I think I will grab it tomorrow.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#10  Postby Rome Existed » Nov 19, 2013 9:30 am

There's 1 professional review up on Metacritic now.......... and it gave the game a lower score than the average user review.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#11  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Nov 19, 2013 9:35 am

I take professional reviews as far as I can toss them, and because they are part of the internet that is not very far at all.

I take the average user review even less. Of course if I find it to be shit I will call it so, but so far it sounds like I will have a lot of fun. Since I am not a huge fan of the previous games since I don't know them I might just enjoy it all the more because it is dumbed down a bit.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#12  Postby Rome Existed » Nov 19, 2013 9:43 am

DarthHelmet86 wrote:I take professional reviews as far as I can toss them, and because they are part of the internet that is not very far at all.

I take the average user review even less. Of course if I find it to be shit I will call it so, but so far it sounds like I will have a lot of fun. Since I am not a huge fan of the previous games since I don't know them I might just enjoy it all the more because it is dumbed down a bit.


It's dumbed down a bit more than a bit. It's a shell of its former self.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#13  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Nov 19, 2013 9:46 am

Hmm you say that, but I don't actually care. Complexity does not a good game make, and if UndeadDinosuar is correct Egosoft is know for releasing games that are a shell of their former selves and then fixing it as they go.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#14  Postby UndeadDinosaur » Nov 19, 2013 1:24 pm

DarthHelmet86 wrote:Hmm you say that, but I don't actually care. Complexity does not a good game make, and if UndeadDinosuar is correct Egosoft is know for releasing games that are a shell of their former selves and then fixing it as they go.


With some exceptions, complexity (or the lack thereof) isn't the issue with Rebirth. Old guard fanatics will disagree, but I largely blame them for the convoluted state of the franchise since 1999, so their ire amuses me in that sense. The problem with Rebirth, apart from the bugs, is a set of absolutely mind-boggling design choices by Egosoft. They are a responsive company, so I'm reasonably confident that most of the issues will be addressed in future patches. That said, however, even I am inclined to suggest waiting to buy, because I think the current experience is far below what the game could (and hopefully will) be. I've been fortunate enough to not encounter many of the problems others have faced, but YMMV.

Rome Existed wrote:There's 1 professional review up on Metacritic now.......... and it gave the game a lower score than the average user review.


Yeah, and it reads more like an angry, entitled forum rant than a "professional review."
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#15  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Nov 20, 2013 4:57 am

I have been having a lot of fun so far, ran into the problem with buying the battery things in the tutorial but got past it in the end. Seems to be related to the fact that your ship can't transport them and it bugs out telling the follower to do it through the normal method. Using the trade menu it works fine for buying and selling, it is rather nice watching your trade ship glide in and move around in front of you.

I can see why people would like a radar but so far it hasn't been bothering me, in fact I kind of like not having one. I have to be quick and on my toes to stop people sneaking up behind me in combat. Over all the game reminds me a lot of Freelancer, not a perfect game but one that is a lot of fun to play.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#16  Postby Rome Existed » Nov 20, 2013 5:24 am

UndeadDinosaur wrote:
DarthHelmet86 wrote:Hmm you say that, but I don't actually care. Complexity does not a good game make, and if UndeadDinosuar is correct Egosoft is know for releasing games that are a shell of their former selves and then fixing it as they go.


With some exceptions, complexity (or the lack thereof) isn't the issue with Rebirth. Old guard fanatics will disagree, but I largely blame them for the convoluted state of the franchise since 1999, so their ire amuses me in that sense. The problem with Rebirth, apart from the bugs, is a set of absolutely mind-boggling design choices by Egosoft. They are a responsive company, so I'm reasonably confident that most of the issues will be addressed in future patches. That said, however, even I am inclined to suggest waiting to buy, because I think the current experience is far below what the game could (and hopefully will) be. I've been fortunate enough to not encounter many of the problems others have faced, but YMMV.

Rome Existed wrote:There's 1 professional review up on Metacritic now.......... and it gave the game a lower score than the average user review.


Yeah, and it reads more like an angry, entitled forum rant than a "professional review."


People need to stop with accusing those who don't like a product as being entitled. As a paying customer you are entitled.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#17  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Nov 20, 2013 5:48 am

How do I know when the tutorial is over? I need to earn some money but the game keeps slapping me with the next mission one after the other. I assume I can just stop and do some other side stuff?
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#18  Postby UndeadDinosaur » Nov 20, 2013 4:20 pm

Rome Existed wrote:
People need to stop with accusing those who don't like a product as being entitled. As a paying customer you are entitled.


In many respects the last few days have gone way beyond people simply not liking a product. That said, you can remove "entitled" from my previous post, and the statement still stands. It's a shitty, bitter review, born from the reviewer's apparent belief that Egosoft should have given him X3 2.0, or something.

You are entitled to a working copy of the game you paid for, whatever that may ultimately be as defined by the publisher. That's it. You can like it or not, but the prevalent idea that Egosoft owed some segment of players something, or they betrayed their fans, or they sold out, or whatever—it's just melodramatic ranting, interspersed with legitimate criticism.

DarthHelmet86 wrote:I have been having a lot of fun so far, ran into the problem with buying the battery things in the tutorial but got past it in the end.


Yeah, I managed to avoid that one, because I read beforehand that it works best if you buy exactly 100 cells. Maybe it was just luck. I've hit a couple other bugs since then, but I'm at 20 hours and counting now.

It is cool to watch the freighter pull up to the dock and ferry your products back and forth.

DarthHelmet86 wrote:How do I know when the tutorial is over? I need to earn some money but the game keeps slapping me with the next mission one after the other. I assume I can just stop and do some other side stuff?


Yeah, you can just stop the story at any time and do whatever you want, though you have to play up to a certain point in order to open a jump gate leading to other sectors.

One of the best ways to earn money is finding spaced cargo in The Big Empty with the long-range scanner. I collected over a millions credits in less than half an hour, and it's probably possible to get much more than that.
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#19  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Nov 21, 2013 12:57 am

Do I need my freighter for picking up the spaced cargo? And do I get my freighter back once I come back from the other sector? (I have in fact just used the jump gate to jump back to the first sector.)
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Re: Do not buy X Rebirth

#20  Postby UndeadDinosaur » Nov 22, 2013 2:02 am

DarthHelmet86 wrote:Do I need my freighter for picking up the spaced cargo? And do I get my freighter back once I come back from the other sector? (I have in fact just used the jump gate to jump back to the first sector.)


The free-floating cargo can be collected with the Skunk—no freighter required.

You freighter is returned shortly during the story, if you haven't discovered that already.
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