Misogyny and video game culture

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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#101  Postby Thommo » Oct 23, 2014 6:04 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:And death threats are not something to be ignored.


Often, that's exactly the best thing to do, and what legal authorities will advise, after having the complaints directed their way.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#102  Postby VazScep » Oct 23, 2014 6:19 pm

Thommo wrote:including people on the other side of "gamergate" (good lord that's a stupid name, isn't it?).
As an unimaginative text-substitution to reference a political scandal that went all the way to the fucking Whitehouse, yes, all such names are fucking stupid.

It should be "Blackgate", in reference to the trolls fighting the Army of the West in LOTR.
Here we go again. First, we discover recursion.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#103  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 23, 2014 6:45 pm

Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:And death threats are not something to be ignored.


Often, that's exactly the best thing to do, and what legal authorities will advise, after having the complaints directed their way.

Contacting legal authorities =/= ignoring the situation, so you've refuted your own point.
More-over public awareness and discussion can affect (sub)cultures.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#104  Postby Thommo » Oct 23, 2014 6:55 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:And death threats are not something to be ignored.


Often, that's exactly the best thing to do, and what legal authorities will advise, after having the complaints directed their way.

Contacting legal authorities =/= ignoring the situation, so you've refuted your own point.
More-over public awareness and discussion can affect (sub)cultures.


No, I haven't contradicted myself, you're just engaged in point scoring rather than conversation.

There's a world of difference between taking death threats to the authorities, then going on with your life in the knowledge there's no real danger compared to visiting various journalists and news channels and publicising those death threats and talking repeatedly and publicly about how you were terrified out of your home.

There's a world of difference between endorsing law enforcement and every single public conversation regarding potential sexism in gaming being dominated by discussion of death threats and internet trolls.

These goings on are worse than merely wrong, or misrepresentative, they are boring.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#105  Postby Thomas Eshuis » Oct 23, 2014 7:34 pm

Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:And death threats are not something to be ignored.


Often, that's exactly the best thing to do, and what legal authorities will advise, after having the complaints directed their way.

Contacting legal authorities =/= ignoring the situation, so you've refuted your own point.
More-over public awareness and discussion can affect (sub)cultures.


No, I haven't contradicted myself, you're just engaged in point scoring rather than conversation.

You did. You just said it's best to ignore it and trust the legal authorities. But the legal authorities won't do anything unless they're first informed. Which requires action, rather than ignoring.

Thommo wrote:There's a world of difference between taking death threats to the authorities, then going on with your life in the knowledge there's no real danger compared to visiting various journalists and news channels and publicising those death threats and talking repeatedly and publicly about how you were terrified out of your home.

And how do you know there's no real danger?

Thommo wrote:There's a world of difference between endorsing law enforcement and every single public conversation regarding potential sexism in gaming being dominated by discussion of death threats and internet trolls.

These goings on are worse than merely wrong, or misrepresentative, they are boring.

Yep, especially when presented in such a black and white hyperbole.
"Respect for personal beliefs = "I am going to tell you all what I think of YOU, but don't dare retort and tell what you think of ME because...it's my personal belief". Hmm. A bully's charter and no mistake."
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#106  Postby Boyle » Oct 23, 2014 9:21 pm

DarthHelmet86 wrote:]And that is all small fucking eggs compared to the real problem, which is paid for reviews by gaming PR firms and bullshit attempts at controlling the reviews, videos and streams of the game. There is a serious problem in the gaming world when it comes to the ethics of reviewers and game companies. It taints a fair amount of sites and is starting to work its way into the youtube reviewing community turning once trusted honest everyman reviewers into shills. Large corporations are using the same tactics they see work in other worlds of business and it is ruining gaming. Games made by committee to fit the market research, paint by numbers design and marketing pulled from the shady side of selling dodgy products is not what I want in my gaming. If you want to pretend this all must be a over reaction by a bunch of idiots go for it but I will be waiting to discuss the problem when the shit has cooled and people aren't trying to make this a great war to get as much attention as they can.

Hasn't this been perennial issue in gaming, though? I remember this sort of thing being talked about when it came to publications like PC Mag and PC World as well.

I didn't mean to paint you as someone that was only in it, or even tangentially in it, for the Quinn thing. It's clear you took it that way and that was not my intention. My point was that, as far as I could tell, this was largely touched off by that event. As such, it has been irrevocably attached to it because whenever mainstream news outlets report on it they inevitably include the backstory. That's the narrative that I saw develop.

Regardless, if you seriously want to change the way games are made and how they are marketed, you need a lot of attention and a lot of people to change what games they play and what games they buy. The games by committee thing won't go away till those games are no longer bought. Considering how well a lot of them sell, though that's not likely to occur anytime soon. I think that discussion deserves its own thread, though.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#107  Postby Spinozasgalt » Oct 24, 2014 5:32 am

Thommo wrote:There's a world of difference between endorsing law enforcement and every single public conversation regarding potential sexism in gaming being dominated by discussion of death threats and internet trolls.


As long as online feminists allow, or seek to have, these controversies dominate the media's picture of feminism, I think they may also struggle to popularise the sort of close vision or perceptive awareness that they say it takes to see the subtleties of the misogyny underlying various attitudes, tropes, etc. in different cultures. It's a bit like the media giving you an eye test: if you see that these death threats against women are wrong then your vision is just fine.

That probably won't prevent many traffic accidents.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#108  Postby Spinozasgalt » Oct 24, 2014 7:00 am

Tweets.jpg
Tweets.jpg (70.4 KiB) Viewed 3034 times


:what:
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#109  Postby Thommo » Oct 24, 2014 3:35 pm

Spinozasgalt wrote:
Tweets.jpg


:what:


Yeah, I know. It's almost like she's not trying to have a nuanced discussion isn't it?

I'm constantly perplexed at how much she takes for granted even in her less polemic moments. The "dearth" of female protagonists in video games is an archetypal example. Of the games I bought over a few years, and of those which feature a protagonist (so, games like civilisation excluded) over 50% feature a playable female protagonist. I know this because I counted, and suspect it's representative of highly rated games taken from a variety of genres, with admittedly low representation of FPS games (I don't like modern FPS design much).

I also don't think I've ever owned a game that features jiggle physics remotely comparable to Dead or Alive, yet how many times does that get mentioned?

There definitely is a conversation to be had, the number of homophobic, racist or misogynistic comments encountered on places like XBOX live is definitely way too high, and the number of people who think "teabagging" or "corpse raping" are funny is... incredible and I've heard communites for games like League of Legends can be the same, but on the other hand MMO communites are vastly different in my experience.

I think too many people believe as an article of faith that there is a unique or intrinsic problem among gamers regarding sexism, and too many people won't even consider that there might be, so no conversation ever takes place and no facts ever emerge.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#110  Postby Rome Existed » Oct 24, 2014 4:03 pm

Thommo wrote:
Spinozasgalt wrote:
Tweets.jpg


:what:


Yeah, I know. It's almost like she's not trying to have a nuanced discussion isn't it?

I'm constantly perplexed at how much she takes for granted even in her less polemic moments. The "dearth" of female protagonists in video games is an archetypal example. Of the games I bought over a few years, and of those which feature a protagonist (so, games like civilisation excluded) over 50% feature a playable female protagonist. I know this because I counted, and suspect it's representative of highly rated games taken from a variety of genres, with admittedly low representation of FPS games (I don't like modern FPS design much).

I also don't think I've ever owned a game that features jiggle physics remotely comparable to Dead or Alive, yet how many times does that get mentioned?

There definitely is a conversation to be had, the number of homophobic, racist or misogynistic comments encountered on places like XBOX live is definitely way too high, and the number of people who think "teabagging" or "corpse raping" are funny is... incredible and I've heard communites for games like League of Legends can be the same, but on the other hand MMO communites are vastly different in my experience.

I think too many people believe as an article of faith that there is a unique or intrinsic problem among gamers regarding sexism, and too many people won't even consider that there might be, so no conversation ever takes place and no facts ever emerge.



I think there's a reason why 90% of the games she discusses seem to come from the 80s or 90s.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#111  Postby Thommo » Oct 24, 2014 4:40 pm

Rome Existed wrote:I think there's a reason why 90% of the games she discusses seem to come from the 80s or 90s.


I wonder if it's connected to the reason for 100% of her "research" coming from http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HomePage?
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#112  Postby Spinozasgalt » Oct 25, 2014 1:39 am

Thommo wrote:Yeah, I know. It's almost like she's not trying to have a nuanced discussion isn't it?


I think Andrew Sullivan is right. This is really about the popular kids in the playground trying to bully the nerds. :whistle:
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#113  Postby Thommo » Oct 25, 2014 1:48 am

Spinozasgalt wrote:
Thommo wrote:Yeah, I know. It's almost like she's not trying to have a nuanced discussion isn't it?


I think Andrew Sullivan is right. This is really about the popular kids in the playground trying to bully the nerds. :whistle:


I wish I knew who Andrew Sullivan was or what he'd said. :(
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#114  Postby Thommo » Oct 25, 2014 1:57 am

Apparently he wrote this:-

I know it isn’t fair to tarnish an entire tendency with this kind of extremism, but the fact that this tactic seemed to be the first thing that some gamergate advocates deployed should send off some red flashing lights as to the culture it is defending.


And I know what he means. He's got Piers fucking Morgan defending his culture and profession. :lol:
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#115  Postby Spinozasgalt » Oct 25, 2014 2:14 am

Yeah, it's taken from this.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#116  Postby Nicko » Nov 02, 2014 3:35 pm

Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thommo wrote:
Thomas Eshuis wrote:
Thommo wrote:

Often, that's exactly the best thing to do, and what legal authorities will advise, after having the complaints directed their way.

Contacting legal authorities =/= ignoring the situation, so you've refuted your own point.
More-over public awareness and discussion can affect (sub)cultures.


No, I haven't contradicted myself, you're just engaged in point scoring rather than conversation.

You did. You just said it's best to ignore it and trust the legal authorities. But the legal authorities won't do anything unless they're first informed. Which requires action, rather than ignoring.

Thommo wrote:There's a world of difference between taking death threats to the authorities, then going on with your life in the knowledge there's no real danger compared to visiting various journalists and news channels and publicising those death threats and talking repeatedly and publicly about how you were terrified out of your home.

And how do you know there's no real danger?

Thommo wrote:There's a world of difference between endorsing law enforcement and every single public conversation regarding potential sexism in gaming being dominated by discussion of death threats and internet trolls.

These goings on are worse than merely wrong, or misrepresentative, they are boring.

Yep, especially when presented in such a black and white hyperbole.


There is a difference between contacting an agency with the power to hunt some abusive motherfucker down and jumping on Twitter to tell everyone how oppressed you are.

Good essay on Interwebz threats here.

TotalBiscuit wrote:I understand receiving death threats can be frightening and I don't blame anyone who acts out of emotion when it happens, but please understand that the people that send these are looking to do maximum damage to as many people as possible. Think very carefully before enabling their behavior.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#117  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » Nov 02, 2014 4:08 pm

So Anita is educated in communication and social/political thought, and worked as a viral marketer with her boyfriend before starting all this.

If you examine the timeline it is pretty interesting.

She produced a number of videos, like any number of people commenting on games or movies or whatever, but what she did was different than the others. She did not allow commenting on her views whilst simultaneously telling outright lies to make her points. The best example was in the Hitman game in which she preformed actions that the game gives penalties for whilst presenting it as the game was pushing players to perform these actions. Another reason people were upset with her was that she was stealing video clips from other game commentators without credit, presenting it as her gameplay. Additionally she stole artwork from from a lady on the web for her logo. So she built up animosity in the community whilst disallowing anyone to directly comment on what she was doing. Everyone knows how the internets works, particularly someone with Anita's background, she intentionally built up a frustrated group of people that felt she was dishonest in representing video games.

Now, after a couple of years of this she decided to do a kickstarter and ask for donations to keep doing what she had been doing for the previous couple of years, at first it didn't really kickoff that great. The she decided to open comments just for her kickstarter whilst advertizing at 4-chan video game boards (the same people she had been not allowing to comment on her videos for years) for donations. Well, of course all these people that she had been trolling for two years took the bait and made comments. She then turned those comments into a money grab by reaching out to the feminist community getting almost $60,000 in donations mostly based upon being picked on.

After receiving the donations so she could make more videos she spent the next couple of years not really making very many videos, and supporters starting asking where the money went as she wasn't making the videos she promised. With the heat on, she suddenly received a very strange series of tweets all in a row over a few minutes, of which she took a screen shot just seconds after the last tweet. Very suspicious.

She and her boyfriend are just very good marketers that targeted the feminist community using the gamer community as the bait.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#118  Postby Thommo » Nov 02, 2014 4:49 pm

I don't understand why people even call Anita Sarkeesian a critic, she's not.

A critic is a person (usually a fan of a form of media), who in a professional or nonprofessional manner experiences a work of art, explores its dimensions and then writes about it, analysing it in terms of culture, background, technical mastery, themes and execution.

What Anita does is more a form of polemics, running on confirmation bias. She decides that video games are "vs women" and goes hunting for examples, which she then holds up saying "see!". Since she goes back and uses examples from up to twenty years ago this isn't informative as criticism, no game is analysed deeply and the samples are completely non-representative so no legitimate inference about the state of video games as a whole can be drawn. The number of examples is so low you could (if sufficiently bored) come up with examples featuring a man in the negative role to match each and every example cited by Anita - we are only talking about a few dozen examples out of literally tens of millions of video games made over the last couple of decades.

This doesn't of course mean that Anita is wrong, although as I've pointed out before her claims certainly don't match my experience - around 7/10 games featuring a protagonist in my collection allow me to play as a female character, it's not remotely uncommon unless you arbitrarily exclude huge numbers of games for also allowing choice of a male one.

I also wonder why so many people talk about objectification of women in games without ever realising that games don't actually feature women, they feature depictions of women that require anthropomorphisation. If I stare at some drawing of an imaginary woman, admiring her curves and drooling there's never any objectification, she has no feelings, dreams, hopes and fears for me to ignore, I can't treat her "like" an object she "is" an object. This is in stark contrast to real and damaging objectification where a woman, a person in her own right is treated is less than human. Frankly if teenage boys are going to get het up over pictures it's hard to see where the harm in those pictures being fantasies, drawn for that express purpose actually is.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#119  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » Nov 02, 2014 5:02 pm

As evidence that she is just running a marketing ploy on feminists, she was a supporter of the #CancelColbert movement due to his viewers being of the white liberal male patriarchy, yet she goes on his show!
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#120  Postby Jerome Da Gnome » Nov 02, 2014 6:51 pm

Maya Posch @MayaPosch · 1h 1 hour ago

Getting attacked by men on social media sites for refusing to agree with Sarkeesian as a female gamer. Bizarre. #GamerGate #NotYourShield


https://twitter.com/MayaPosch/status/528957446958891008
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