Misogyny and video game culture

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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#41  Postby Scar » Sep 04, 2014 10:34 pm

Fallible wrote:What is a casual gamer and what other types of gamer are there apart from professional? I've been playing WoW for nearly 10 years now, sometimes a few hours a day but then not at all for weeks or months on end.

Dunno. Guess people wouldn't call you a casual. I've always found the distinction silly and it's mostly used by 13 year old dipshits shouting "stupid casuals" and shit.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#42  Postby Rome Existed » Sep 04, 2014 11:36 pm

Nicko wrote:
Varangian wrote:
Rome Existed wrote:Women though tend to be casual gamers. This is why your large AAA titles are still made for males. It's a financial risk to make a $100m game exclusively for women.

FIFY. Making a game that appeals to both sexes will increase the potential customer base. It would be interesting to see how games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect, where you can play male or female, have attracted female gamers.


Pretty much any RPG - MMO or not - has female PC options.

I'm sure that games companies are looking at the female market and wondering how to appeal to it. It's just basic economics.


The problem being that entertainment companies are naturally risk adverse. AAA titles especially cost a lot of money. They would rather go with what already works.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#43  Postby Rome Existed » Sep 04, 2014 11:38 pm

Sendraks wrote:I know of no "casual" female gamers.
All the female gamers I know of play their preferred games with the same intensity and dedication as their male counterparts.

The "women tend to be casual" gamers is a strawman argument at best, especially given the concept of a "casual gamer" is so loosely defined.


Casual refers to games that don't cost as much as a Jumbo Jet to make. Things such as Angry Birds. So when people complain that AAA titles are alienating their female customers, who make up about 50% of all gamers, they're missing the point that most female gamers play Casual Games and not AAA titles.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#44  Postby Boyle » Sep 05, 2014 12:27 am

Rome Existed wrote:
Sendraks wrote:I know of no "casual" female gamers.
All the female gamers I know of play their preferred games with the same intensity and dedication as their male counterparts.

The "women tend to be casual" gamers is a strawman argument at best, especially given the concept of a "casual gamer" is so loosely defined.


Casual refers to games that don't cost as much as a Jumbo Jet to make. Things such as Angry Birds. So when people complain that AAA titles are alienating their female customers, who make up about 50% of all gamers, they're missing the point that most female gamers play Casual Games and not AAA titles.

What're the numbers?
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#45  Postby tuco » Sep 05, 2014 1:10 am

David Gaider, for example, mentioned they have stats for 30% females playing Dragon Age.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#46  Postby Nicko » Sep 05, 2014 6:56 am

Interesting article on Interwebz harassment from the Daily Beast:

There is the obvious danger of censoring legitimate speech. In Canada right now, a middle-aged designer named Gregory Elliott is on trial for criminal harassment for sending non-sexual, non-threatening, but argumentative unwelcome tweets to feminist activist Stephanie Guthrie. But there is also the danger of perpetuating women’s vulnerabilities in the name of protecting them. In her analysis of videogames, Sarkeesian has been particularly critical of damsel-in-distress stereotypes and casual “depictions of female victimhood.” Yet we bolster the same stereotypes when we focus on nasty things said to women while trivializing threats against men even though men are much more likely to be victims of violence by strangers.

As long as the Internet exists, there will be rude, nasty, and unstable people on it—and sometimes, you will be attacked, especially if you write and speak on controversial subjects. We need a better middle ground between telling victims of harassment to grow a thick skin, and telling people they have a right to be shielded from all un-pleasantries. As we search for that middle ground, we should beware of paternalism based on the mistaken view that Internet nastiness is a particular problem for women.


This blog post also makes some excellent points (I think the threats against Jack Thompson have already been mentioned).
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#47  Postby Varangian » Sep 05, 2014 8:15 am

Nicko wrote:This blog post also makes some excellent points (I think the threats against Jack Thompson have already been mentioned).


I read it. A tad long, but sums up the problems with the whole issue quite well.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#48  Postby Boyle » Sep 06, 2014 1:58 am

Nicko wrote:Interesting article on Interwebz harassment from the Daily Beast:

Good article.

This blog post also makes some excellent points (I think the threats against Jack Thompson have already been mentioned).

That's a seriously researched blog post, damn. Gonna try to read it tonight.

tuco wrote:David Gaider, for example, mentioned they have stats for 30% females playing Dragon Age.

Thanks for ze link. Listening to it now.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#49  Postby Boyle » Sep 06, 2014 2:28 am

Despite some legitimate targets dotted sporadically around, a lot of her [Sarkeesian's] criticisms betray a lack of understanding of the language of video games, the technicalities of game development clear to anyone with an intimate knowledge of gaming, or the constraints of development teams, or of course thousands of years of cultural inertia that betray deeper issues in society at large that its overly simplistic or downright unfair to criticise games for. And as linked above, other times she is flat-out dishonest and manipulative and that I’m afraid brings her entire argument to its knees. People who are right do not need to use tactics like this to make an argument, and I find it somewhat surprising and a little sad when heroes such as Tim Schafer, who I could only assume have much more understanding of game development than I do, seemingly not recognise any of these issues with her arguments and recommend and legitimise her videos without even a ‘but’.

Make your distinctions clear, and don’t dump innocent people into your ever expanding misogyny pile.

This will ACTUALLY GENUINELY CERTAINLY [In regards to suggesting that Anita Sarkeesian use her comms degree to motive young girls to be interested in video game development] work, and there won’t be a death threat ever uttered, no trauma, no upset, no controversy, nothing. You’d get to inspire young women and change their lives. This is what is needed, not a bunch of talking head videos on Youtube offering criticism and condemnation and yet offering no real solutions to the real problems of actual lack of representation of women in games development. We need more female applicants, not a sexism seminar.

These are the particular things I like from that blog post. Honestly, I like most of it, but these especially. It brings to mind the kids that insulted me (during a game) had a surprising amount of sex with my mother, and were also able to divine what they thought to be my sexual orientation. All this from Call of Duty 2! Amazing, really.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#50  Postby Rome Existed » Sep 06, 2014 11:45 am

Apparently someone has been tweeting child porn to Anita and she's apparently tweeting screenshots or something. Internet is exploding.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#51  Postby Nicko » Sep 06, 2014 12:08 pm

Rome Existed wrote:Apparently someone has been tweeting child porn to Anita and she's apparently tweeting screenshots or something. Internet is exploding.


WTF?
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#52  Postby Varangian » Sep 06, 2014 12:18 pm

It takes just a few trolls to fan the flames and denigrate a whole hobby, as is pointed out in the linked blog post above.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#53  Postby Boyle » Sep 06, 2014 5:52 pm

Holy shit.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#54  Postby Nicko » Sep 07, 2014 4:00 am

Rome Existed wrote:Apparently someone has been tweeting child porn to Anita and she's apparently tweeting screenshots or something. Internet is exploding.


Trying to find a reference for this. I mean, if someone tweets you child porn and you then tweet screenshots of it, aren't you distributing child porn?

Edit:

Here it is.

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Um, that would be the "reporting abusive behaviour" function, Anita. Why do I - I don't even use twitter - seem to know more about twitter's functions than a woman who seems to fucking live there and constantly claims to be receiving death threats via it?
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#55  Postby Rome Existed » Sep 07, 2014 4:15 am

Zoe Quinn is now apparently threatening people who are reposting her Twitter posts on other websites. She's saying that she's reported it to the police, FBI, etc for harassment, etc.

It's almost like they want people to say nasty things about them.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#56  Postby VazScep » Sep 07, 2014 1:03 pm

Fallible wrote:What is a casual gamer and what other types of gamer are there apart from professional?
Maybe it's a shite term, but I assumed I became a "casual gamer" when I found myself wanting my play-time to be limited to 15 minutes max, and not to require any major continuity between plays. The games I'd been playing before then had involved long sessions at the computer, and they were difficult to just dip in and out of. Think Civilization compared to Mario, both of which are hardcore classic games.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#57  Postby VazScep » Sep 07, 2014 1:10 pm

Rome Existed wrote:Casual refers to games that don't cost as much as a Jumbo Jet to make.
No, those are just indie games. Dwarf Fortress has far far less money put into it than Angry Birds, but the former requires a shit load of time to master and is designed to suck you into a single prolonged one player campaign, replete with rich stories about how that campaign played out, while the latter is something you can use to keep your five-year old quiet at the restaurant.

There are many more examples.

Jumbo-jet costs might also be spent on things largely irrelevant to the game as a game: asset creation, Kevin Spacey fees, advertising and so on. The tech you need to create a new game concept isn't expensive, and if you've got really fresh ideas, you probably want to avoid the expensive off-the-shelf game engines.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#58  Postby tuco » Sep 07, 2014 1:18 pm

Soz VazScep, cant help it. Dwarf Fortress? :P
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#59  Postby Rome Existed » Sep 07, 2014 1:19 pm

VazScep wrote:
Rome Existed wrote:Casual refers to games that don't cost as much as a Jumbo Jet to make.
No, those are just indie games. Dwarf Fortress has far far less money put into it than Angry Birds, but the former requires a shit load of time to master and is designed to suck you into a single prolonged one player campaign, replete with rich stories about how that campaign played out, while the latter is something you can use to keep your five-year old quiet at the restaurant.

There are many more examples.

Jumbo-jet costs might also be spent on things largely irrelevant to the game as a game: asset creation, Kevin Spacey fees, advertising and so on. The tech you need to create a new game concept isn't expensive, and if you've got really fresh ideas, you probably want to avoid the expensive off-the-shelf game engines.


No, indie refers to the size of the development team. Indie games can still cost millions of dollars to make.
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Re: Misogyny and video game culture

#60  Postby VazScep » Sep 07, 2014 1:56 pm

Rome Existed wrote:No, indie refers to the size of the development team. Indie games can still cost millions of dollars to make.
If we want to keep picking the nits, we can ask about the size of the development team behind open-source projects, such as Freeciv, whose produce is only going to be described as less than "indie". Consider "Black Mesa: Source", for another.

If you want to get technical, it should just refer to a game made without a major publisher and distributor such as EA.

By and large, those games don't cost as much as a jumbo-jet to make. I mostly wanted to say that games on the polar opposite of Angry Birds in terms of expected investment have been made on a shoestring (though a lot of smart).
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