Just Fed Up

[aban57]

Why do you still need to have this explained to you ?

Because of your death grip.

If this means what I think it means (and I can't be sure because you and SoS won't explain), then hell yes, I have a death grip. I think the death of thousands of innocent people every year is worth concerning, especially since they are mainly caused by a bunch of lunatics who won't let their guns go because they need to compensate for their fears and... other complexes.
Yes, I care about people dying. It's called empathy and compassion. That's what decent human beings fell. Maybe you've heard of it.

You're not American, as far as I can tell, so you may be getting a kick out of bashing American firearms lobbies and legislation. American gun violence doesn't affect you nearly as much as suicide bombings and vehicular mayhem do, and those get condemned, too. To figure out the process that led to that sad state of affairs, contact your own legislators.

So I'm supposed to care only about what affects me directly ? That's some sick selfishness you're showing here. But not everyone is like you. So I will care about what I want, regardless of what you like or not.

...

Which laws ? Ban people who have mental health issues from having a gun. FFS, ban legally blind people too. Force everyone to get a federal license before being able to purchase a gun. Register every single gun bought. And remove from the market "war" guns. You've heard those laws hundreds of times before. Why do you still need to have this explained to you ?

That was like pulling teeth but thanks. No idea why you think I would know about this list of 'recommendations'. Am I psychic? Is the list on a t-shirt somewhere?

The list, and others that have been posted on this topic, reappear on every media after every mass shooting. I don't believe for a second that you never heard of them.

I get real squeamish at federal registration

How is it possible to have any sensible laws at all concerning the distribution/ownership/use of guns if it is not compulsory to register/licence them? This is step one of any logical gun safety programme.

My guns are all registered. I have to do a federal background check to purchase a firearm. That's not the same as 'requiring a federal license'. I don't like the sounds of that prickly bitch. I'm guessing that targets poor people with a 500 dollar license of some sort and a whole fuck-ton of bullshit paperwork.

And you very well know that this doesn't apply in every state. Trying to justify this with your own specific case is just dishonest.

Also, for the record, I served in the French Army for 20 years, and used firearms during most of this time. Rifles and handguns. I was pretty good at it too. So I'm not afraid of guns themselves, I'm scared of all the lunatics that will kill you over a gaze. Or because they're drunk or just clumsy. Or because they decided they were going to kill 50 people that day because they had a bad bowel movement.

[Cito di Pense]

So I will care about what I want, regardless of what you like or not.

Squeeze out every drop of care you can manage. And then wave your hands at the problem, just like everybody else:

Force everyone to get a federal license before being able to purchase a gun. Register every single gun bought. And remove from the market "war" guns. You've heard those laws hundreds of times before. Why do you still need to have this explained to you ?

You have no more fucking clue how to implement this than I do. It would be a great plan if only you could supply the details for its implementation. Yet you are ignorantly confident you know what you're talking about, just because your heart bleeds a little for victims of gun violence an ocean away from you.

I'm scared of all the lunatics that will kill you over a gaze.

Need I remind you, they're an ocean away from you. You're not scared; you're indignant. You're right that US society is sick, but you have no clue how to fix it. Someday, the US will be history, but evidently not soon enough to suit you.

I hope you know more about the US than you're letting on, here, as you wax indignant about people who you claim don't care as much as you do. I'm not defending gun ownership. I'm attacking ignorant hostile hand-waving in an obscure internet forum. Blow off some steam, why don't ya? Caring is easy. That's what the mainstream media are there to fan the flames of. Waving your hands and caring implements fuck all.

I think the death of thousands of innocent people every year is worth concerning

You're trafficking in innocence, here. Go back to church and defend the rights of the unborn, instead of moralizing tediously in my general direction. The people you are talking about are not innocent in any relevant sense. They are complicit, precisely from your perspective, in tolerating the firearms lobbies. Many of the people who die in US gun violence are staunch defenders of gun ownership, and you'd say, good riddance to them.

[zulumoose]

What an absolute load of unwarranted hostile inflammatory bollox. An exercise in how not to be taken seriously.
Where is all the vitriol coming from CdP?

[Cito di Pense]

What an absolute load of unwarranted hostile inflammatory bollox. An exercise in how not to be taken seriously.
Where is all the vitriol coming from CdP?

In a thread entitled "Just Fed Up", I'll give you three guesses, and the first two don't count. Anyway, aren't you the guy who, a couple of posts ago, decided to claim that your point was made, absent any appropriate rational-skeptic reasoning?

My vitriol comes from the same place yours does, Bub. The difference between you and me is that I know I'm here just blowing off steam, rather than moralizing and claiming I care.

I've made my remarks plainly, ZM. If you don't know anything about US society and you still want to contribute, make the sacrifice to LEARN something instead of waving your hands at the problem. If you do that much, you'll at least begin to understand why solutions to the US firearms problem are not dropping off the trees for you to gather up ever-so-gallantly.

[zulumoose]

Blowing off steam does not usually require attacking fellow forumites with such sarcastic relish, and such poor aim.

[laklak]

The insurance idea is interesting, but I can guarantee it wouldn't work for a couple of reasons. One is the no one knows where the guns are or who owns them so you couldn't monitor compliance. Second, they'd just ignore it.

We've had mandatory automobile insurance here since I started driving back in the dark ages, but I still need to carry uninsured motorist protection because a substantial percentage of people ignore the law. Despite the fact that if you don't have insurance you can't register your automobile, and the insurance agencies report you to the DMV if you drop or lose your coverage and the state then suspends your driving license.

[aban57]

Blowing off steam does not usually require attacking fellow forumites with such sarcastic relish, and such poor aim.

And such poor arguments. I'm not American, so I don't understand how laws work, it's too hard to change anything anyway.
Of course...
And regarding the rest of his post, from here :

There is an almost perpetual gap between my expectations as to how things should be and the way things actually are. This space, or divide, causes me a considerable amount of discomfort, which I try to alleviate through the use of repetitive thoughts, as well as spoken and written words. This activity is called "complaining." The fact that it rarely accomplishes anything, other than exacerbate my irritation, does not keep me from engaging in it. Furthermore, it appears that buried deep within my psyche is the firmly held conviction that complaining is therapeutic - even though experience shows again and again that it's not. In other words, I have a false belief that appears to be immutable, which drives me to take an action that only makes matters worse... and I like it. My only consolation is the knowledge that I come from a long line of complainers. One of my fondest childhood memories is looking up at the adult relatives gathered around the kitchen table, the men smoking Pall Malls, the women smoking Newports, everyone eating smoked fish, and all of them talking over each other, loudly bitching and moaning about pretty much everything. I remember that a rant would often end with the resigned, self-deprecating, seemingly rhetorical question, "Oh, well, who am I to complain?" Well, these many years later, it turns out it's not rhetorical. And I now know the answer. This is my birthright.

Who am I if I don't complain?

[SpeedOfSound]

It is precisely this fear and paranoia about danger that every gun owner needs to be trained in if he doesn't have it already by nature. Fortunately this same kind of imaginative paranoia makes you want to have a gun for protection in the first place.

Hey, I fired a rifle on a range at summer camp and had no problems. I was eleven years old or something. But there have been fewer weird experiences for me than firing a few rounds out of a hand cannon at some beer cans a couple dozen meters away. There were five or six of us in the quarry, and I liked those guys, so even though I could have, I didn't turn around and wave the gun at them.

I don't know how anyone develops that sense if they don't do it while they're young. By the time you're older, a gun is not a magical thing. Just a deadly thing.

I don't want a gun for protection. I'm so world-weary, I sometimes wish something would come along and kill me, hopefully not too slowly. At this point, I'm too old to die young. A lot of people my age kill themselves, usually with firearms, because they had it good in younger years and acutely feel it all slipping away. Maybe you could say they got fed up.

The problem with wishing someone would come along and kill you is that most of those dudes can't shoot for shit. I worry about the pain. So the best solution is to get your own gun and do it right. One of the main reasons that I own a gun is so I don't have to put on my pants, warm the car up, go to a cash machine, find a shady character in a bar, etc., when I'm in the suffocating grip of depression.

[scott1328]

The insurance idea is interesting, but I can guarantee it wouldn't work for a couple of reasons. One is the no one knows where the guns are or who owns them so you couldn't monitor compliance. Second, they'd just ignore it.

We've had mandatory automobile insurance here since I started driving back in the dark ages, but I still need to carry uninsured motorist protection because a substantial percentage of people ignore the law. Despite the fact that if you don't have insurance you can't register your automobile, and the insurance agencies report you to the DMV if you drop or lose your coverage and the state then suspends your driving license.

Criminals illegally operate deadly equipment whether it be automobiles or guns.

The real problem is: would insurance companies jack the rates so high that an insurance law would constitute a de-facto ban in violation of 2nd amendment protections. However, this perhaps can be overcome by requiring insurance OR a bond.

[SpeedOfSound]

The nicest thing about owning guns is knowing that I have the means for a quick exit if necessary. Well, assuming I don't stroke out or dement or otherwise lose the capability to do so. Ain't gonna be pretty for whoever cleans up the mess, but I've promised Mrs. Lak I'll do it in the garden where she can just use a hose. The second nicest thing is knowing I have the means for someone else's quick exit if necessary. Subject to the same constraints as above.

Registration and licensing, sure, why not? The oliphant in the room is how you gonna find all those pre-background check ones? Now, the Feds claim they don't keep those background check records, but I'm skeptical, so they know about two of mine (plus there's the concealed carry license). The others aren't on anyone's list. I've no idea how many of the estimated 300+ million firearms in the U.S. fall into the same category, but I'm betting it's a substantial percentage. With approximately 125 million households in the U.S., how you going to find them? House to house serach? Somehow I can't see them looking in every septic tank or tearing up every couch. I've heard suggestions that we restrict ammo sales to only registered owners, but that's a bit of a red herring too. I'm not considered even an entry-level gun nut by my true gun nut acquaintances, but I've got several thousand rounds of ammunition stashed. Some of them have, literally, 10s of thousands of rounds. All with no records of any kind. No matter how you slice it you're not getting rid of them easily, particularly since most of the aforementioned true gun nuts would go out in a hail of bullets, taking a few Gestapo ATF agents with them.

There are some measures that can be taken. They aren't popular for some reason. NPR seldom talks about them on the days that they declare 'all massacre news, all day long' (they actually did that after the Las vegas thing). I know of a several guys that have cracked their brains into oblivion. The police arrest these guys about twice a year. They put them in a cell and wait for some prescribed time and then just let them out. Now granted these guys probably made felony status at least once and even if they could pass a background check they couldn't fill out the forms and they would NEVER spend money on a gun. They need that money for crack. But they still could find guns.

If we actually paid attention, trained the fucking police to see mental illness when it's writhing on the floor in handcuffs before their eyes, and got these people into hospitals instead of cells... Just maybe.

[laklak]

Criminals illegally operate deadly equipment whether it be automobiles or guns.

The real problem is: would insurance companies jack the rates so high that an insurance law would constitute a de-facto ban in violation of 2nd amendment protections. However, this perhaps can be overcome by requiring insurance OR a bond.

I'd imagine the current SCOTUS would find it violates the 2nd. I don't think it would be particularly high, though. At least for some. Actuaries are pretty smart people, and the chances of someone like me having a claim is pretty small. Retired, white, educated, no criminal record, no traffic tickets, concealed carrry (because of the required training), etc. But high school dropout Billy Joe Jim Bob living in a trailer in the backwoods, with a juvie record and a few DUIs? Different story. Thing is, he probably needs a gun more than I do, he probably gets most of his meat from hunting, and there's methheads in them thar hills.

The only way it's going to change, IMO, is a very gradual and seismic shit in attitudes. We've pretty much knocked smoking on the head, but it's taken since the 60s to do so.

[scott1328]

The only way it's going to change, IMO, is a very gradual and seismic shit in attitudes. We've pretty much knocked smoking on the head, but it's taken since the 60s to do so.

Typo or Freudian slip?

[laklak]

Lol, typo. I only wear my Freudian slip on Friday nights.

[SpeedOfSound]

We have been through this over and over. Other countries do not have a problem.

Step 1- registration of all firearms. After a deadline all unregistered firearms are illegal. Voluntary hand-in of any you do not want to bother registering. Immediate reduction.

Step 2 - ramp up the requirements to a standard national level for licencing, purchase and transfer of ownership. Continue with voluntary hand-in. Hold an occasional amnesty day for hand-in of unregistered firearms, no questions asked.

1&2 by themselves will lead to a massive reduction, firearms will no longer be inheritable without application for licence and registration, people will be responsible for the whereabouts of all their registered firearms. Any firearms found by police (in the course of their normal duties) will be verifiable and traceable, or destroyed as unregistered. Those who want to retain firearms will be able to as long as they go through the process, and do not have a disqualifying history - such as a previous conviction for a violent offence. The hassle involved with sale of a firearm may also radically reduce private sales and hence ownership.

Not rocket science, no need to come up with nonsense like "With one gun for every man and woman and child it could not be regulated anyway", that's crap, the onus is on the owners to register, hand in, or hold illegally and risk prosecution any time it comes to light. What use is a firearm you can't use legally to a law abiding owner?

A step in the right direction leads to a reduction, and the spin-off benefits begin. National search and seizure has never been attempted anywhere I have ever heard of, and would never be proposed by anyone, that's a smokescreen scare tactic by gun nuts.

Not happening. You show your cards here and that is what we have always suspected. Why would I care to vote for a process that makes my life more difficult and costs me a bunch of money? I already have a gun and happily so. I have reason to believe that your system would do nothing at all to solve the perceived problems of gun violence.

Except for one thing. When your idea doesn't work and we have our next Sandy Hook, now you can go the next step and require turning over all those registered weapons. When that fails to prevent murder then you can just keep the department around for a few decades and fuck up our lives for us.

My suspicion is that it irritates some people that I have a gun and they don't even though they don't want one. It's kind of like my neighbor who rakes his leaves when he shakes his head at my 300hp leaf blower.

Here's an idea. Leave me alone! Quit snooping into my affairs. Quit trying to make simple and comfortable aspects of my life into criminal acts.

[SpeedOfSound]

What the government can't do, insurance companies can. Make proof of insurance required to have a gun in your possession or within your property. The insurance companies will make it so damn expensive to own a gun, no one will bother.

Prosecutions will be for violation of the POI law and not for gun ownership, thus skirting 2nd amendment protections. I would also make it a civil, not criminal, violation, allowing impounding of the fire arm until POI is obtained.

Lovely. I really want to shill out another 300 bucks a month for shit I don't need and don't want. I'm writing a check to the NRA right now based on your post. Better them that that fucking State Farm!

[SpeedOfSound]

Why do you still need to have this explained to you ?

Because of your death grip.

If this means what I think it means (and I can't be sure because you and SoS won't explain), then hell yes, I have a death grip. I think the death of thousands of innocent people every year is worth concerning, especially since they are mainly caused by a bunch of lunatics who won't let their guns go because they need to compensate for their fears and... other complexes.
Yes, I care about people dying. It's called empathy and compassion. That's what decent human beings fell. Maybe you've heard of it.

So I'm not afraid of guns themselves, I'm scared of all the lunatics that will kill you over a gaze.

I am very afraid of guns themselves. I think that's sanity itself. If you aren't then that tells me a lot about you.

Now. Let's see about your reasoning above. I won't let go of my gun because I am as afraid of lunatics who want to kill as you are. A fear that you think, when I have it, is invalid and somehow crazy, but when you have it, it's alright.

Now somehow this gun that I hide in my house, refuse to have any agency know about, and is fully in my death grip, is going to wander out on the street and cause some borderline lunatic to cross the border when he finds my gun wandering around out there.

If guns can do that you really should be more afraid of them in themselves.

[SpeedOfSound]

My guns are all registered. I have to do a federal background check to purchase a firearm. That's not the same as 'requiring a federal license'. I don't like the sounds of that prickly bitch. I'm guessing that targets poor people with a 500 dollar license of some sort and a whole fuck-ton of bullshit paperwork.

And you very well know that this doesn't apply in every state. Trying to justify this with your own specific case is just dishonest.
...

I was kind of shocked when I looked at some of the lax laws in other states after I wrote that. But then you probably don't understand about our states and how many of us really like that they have autonomy in these matters.

[aban57]

Why do you still need to have this explained to you ?

Because of your death grip.

If this means what I think it means (and I can't be sure because you and SoS won't explain), then hell yes, I have a death grip. I think the death of thousands of innocent people every year is worth concerning, especially since they are mainly caused by a bunch of lunatics who won't let their guns go because they need to compensate for their fears and... other complexes.
Yes, I care about people dying. It's called empathy and compassion. That's what decent human beings fell. Maybe you've heard of it.

So I'm not afraid of guns themselves, I'm scared of all the lunatics that will kill you over a gaze.

I am very afraid of guns themselves. I think that's sanity itself. If you aren't then that tells me a lot about you.
[...]
If guns can do that you really should be more afraid of them in themselves.

And that's where you're wrong. Guns are tools (with only one purpose, unlike other tools), it's the way they are used that defines them. And the way they are used depends on several factors, all human. Humans are the weak link here, not guns.
"Guns don't kill people, people kill people" is one of the top NRA arguments, and they use it to tell you that when people die, it's not the guns' fault. They're right, it's not. It's the fault of a system that gives killing tools to people unable to use them properly.
The fact that I'm not afraid of guns tells only two things about me : I know how to use them, and I know it's the guy holding it that decides when to use it, not the gun. Same thing goes if the guy is holding any other tool, like a hammer to crush my skull.

Now. Let's see about your reasoning above. I won't let go of my gun because I am as afraid of lunatics who want to kill as you are. A fear that you think, when I have it, is invalid and somehow crazy, but when you have it, it's alright.

Now somehow this gun that I hide in my house, refuse to have any agency know about, and is fully in my death grip, is going to wander out on the street and cause some borderline lunatic to cross the border when he finds my gun wandering around out there.

What you don't realize is that what you call death grip here is a basic circular reasoning. I want guns to protect myself from bad guys with guns. Remove guns from the equation and the death grip goes away. You don't need a gun to face a burglar, you don't need a gun if no one else in the street has one. You only need a little bit of intelligence to avoid escalating problems.

I grew up in a country where guns are strictly controled. Hunters kill a few people every year, and a few criminals die at the hand of other criminals. One of my brothers was almost shot by a delinquent over a gaze. You really have to be crazy/stupid/irrationnal to think that the solution to this problem is more guns, and more deliquents with guns, instead of the opposite.

[aban57]

My guns are all registered. I have to do a federal background check to purchase a firearm. That's not the same as 'requiring a federal license'. I don't like the sounds of that prickly bitch. I'm guessing that targets poor people with a 500 dollar license of some sort and a whole fuck-ton of bullshit paperwork.

And you very well know that this doesn't apply in every state. Trying to justify this with your own specific case is just dishonest.
...

I was kind of shocked when I looked at some of the lax laws in other states after I wrote that. But then you probably don't understand about our states and how many of us really like that they have autonomy in these matters.

I understand that perfectly. What I don't understand is how you can stay so ignorant, when after every shooting, in different states, the medias are filled with criticism of said laws.

[SpeedOfSound]

After you factor out inner city/drug related homicides with guns and suicides we have 2200 gun homicides a year in the US. It's also a figure that has been coming down from it's unusual peak around 1994. The police are responsible for about 9% of the 2200.

About 500 shootings are considered mass-murders.

I think we have 37000 deaths a year by car. Something like 20,000 suicides. That last number is worrisome and I wonder how many murder suicides we have. The mass shootings are also almost always suicides.

That suicide number concerns me. Not sure if it's any of my business though.

So suicide and inner city/drug/poverty related violence are bandwagons that I would jump onto. Along with the police shooting thingy I guess. Way too much stupid when it's comes to the police.