One bang one process.

Discussions on astrology, homeopathy and superstition etc.

Moderators: kiore, The_Metatron, Blip

User avatar
Darkchilde
RS Donator
Posts: 9015
Joined: Feb 26, 2010 6:42 am
Country: United Kingdom
Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK
Contact:

Re: One bang one process.

Post by Darkchilde »

pfrankinstein";p="905745 wrote:
Spearthrowers 2nd link";p="905745 wrote:Stellar evolution is not biological evolution, even though they rather unfairly share the same word!


The word 'evolution' has a Darwinian unambiguous meaning in science, that = descent modification selection. To describe stellar change as evolution is wrong, slovenly imo, that is unless one See's Darwin's mechanism and a process.

Paul.


Stellar evolution refers to the birth, life and death of a star. It has a definite meaning in astrophysics. A lot of astrophysics books are titled "stellar evolution".

The word evolution is not a word used exclusively in biology; evolution in general does not refer to the theory of evolution, but to anything that changes over time usually via specific processes.

The Oxford Dictionary has it as the theory of evolution as 1, and "the gradual development of something" as 2.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/evolution
User avatar
twistor59
RS Donator
Posts: 4966
Joined: Feb 26, 2010 7:10 pm
Location: Wiltshire UK

Re: One bang one process.

Post by twistor59 »

Darkchilde";p="905771 wrote:
pfrankinstein";p="905745 wrote:
Spearthrowers 2nd link";p="905745 wrote:Stellar evolution is not biological evolution, even though they rather unfairly share the same word!


The word 'evolution' has a Darwinian unambiguous meaning in science, that = descent modification selection. To describe stellar change as evolution is wrong, slovenly imo, that is unless one See's Darwin's mechanism and a process.

Paul.


Stellar evolution refers to the birth, life and death of a star. It has a definite meaning in astrophysics. A lot of astrophysics books are titled "stellar evolution".

The word evolution is not a word used exclusively in biology; evolution in general does not refer to the theory of evolution, but to anything that changes over time usually via specific processes.

The Oxford Dictionary has it as the theory of evolution as 1, and "the gradual development of something" as 2.

http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/evolution



True, physics uses the term "evolution" to mean any shit that changes with time. So for example, Newton's laws define the time evolution of classical systems from an initial state, Schroedinger's equation describes the time evolution of a quantum state from an initial value....

Evolution in the Darwinian sense has the extra ingredient of some mechanism for introducing variability and the ingredient of natural selection.
A soul in tension that's learning to fly
Condition grounded but determined to try
Can't keep my eyes from the circling skies
Tongue-tied and twisted just an earthbound misfit, I
pfrankinstein
Posts: 1814
Joined: Mar 27, 2011 12:42 am
Name: paul
Country: UK

Re: One bang one process.

Post by pfrankinstein »

Spearthrower";p="905754 wrote:Well, to be fair, the word 'evolution' existed long before Darwin came to use it.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=evolve

Latin: "to unroll," especially of books; figuratively "to make clear, disclose; to produce, develop," from ex- "out" (see ex-) + volvere "to roll"


Interestingly Charles Darwin only used the word 'evolution' once in his book 'The origin of species', and that was near the end.
So the story goes [i can't find the link] Victorian high society enjoyed formal dinner parties, on such an occasion an invited guest skim read the last chapter so that he could partake in the discussion and not feel left out, "Oh Darwin's 'evolution', yes exclaimed the guest". The term stuck so here we are today using a one word slang term to express a very important theory.

How true the insight is i am not sure, but it seems to make sense to me.

Paul.
User avatar
Spearthrower
Posts: 33888
Joined: Feb 25, 2010 6:11 pm
Country: Thailand
Location: กรุงเทพมหานคร

Re: One bang one process.

Post by Spearthrower »

You can blame Herbert Spencer for that!

As far as I can recall, the reason why Darwin hardly ever used the term 'evolution' was because he was expressly not suggesting that there was 'progress', as that refers back to the scala natura, i.e. higher and lower beings. In fact, I remember reading Darwin's notes many years ago and recall him noting to himself in the margins something like 'don't use the term higher or lower when talking about organisms'. Quite distinctly, one of the main points he was making is that an amoeba is just as suitably evolved for its niche as an elephant is for its niche. All extant organisms are equally 'evolved', and if we were to put evolution as an axis on a graph, it would only infer time, not quality.

That does reflect back on some of your points incidentally. The notion of progressiveness, of moving towards something as if by intention.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
blindfaith
Posts: 477
Joined: Mar 26, 2010 11:38 am
Name: darren
Country: uk

Re: One bang one process.

Post by blindfaith »

hey pfrankinstein, why dont you go here http://www.originlife.org/

they are giving away millions in funding for real science research, lets see how far you get :whistle:
The best explanation for the absence of convincing reasons for god's existence is god's nonexistence

john shook
User avatar
Spearthrower
Posts: 33888
Joined: Feb 25, 2010 6:11 pm
Country: Thailand
Location: กรุงเทพมหานคร

Re: One bang one process.

Post by Spearthrower »

Actually Blindfaith, in all seriousness that's a fantastic idea. I think it will really help Paul learn how to communicate his ideas better and see what kind of support is needed.

Submitters are encouraged to offer unconventional hypotheses that nonetheless can be subject to experimental validation.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
User avatar
blindfaith
Posts: 477
Joined: Mar 26, 2010 11:38 am
Name: darren
Country: uk

Re: One bang one process.

Post by blindfaith »

*not holding breath*

All submissions will be reviewed by a panel of scientific experts. Submissions should contain a statement of work to be performed and a letter of institutional support where appropriate. Submissions that suggest a multidisciplinary approach should describe how the necessary research capabilities will be provided. Submissions that rely on extraterrestrial sources of key materials must describe in detail how those materials would have been generated. Submissions involving the supernatural or that violate physical laws will not be considered.
The best explanation for the absence of convincing reasons for god's existence is god's nonexistence

john shook
User avatar
campermon
RS Donator
Posts: 17444
Joined: Feb 25, 2010 6:18 pm
Location: Boimingum UK

Re: One bang one process.

Post by campermon »

pfrankinstein";p="905745 wrote:The word 'evolution' has a Darwinian unambiguous meaning in science, that = descent modification selection. To describe stellar change as evolution is wrong, slovenly imo, that is unless one See's Darwin's mechanism and a process.

Paul.


What utter and complete drivel!

:lol: :lol: :cheers: :cheers: :smoke: :smoke:
Scarlett and Ironclad wrote:Campermon,...a middle aged, middle class, Guardian reading, dad of four, knackered hippy, woolly jumper wearing wino and science teacher.
User avatar
Durro
RS Donator
Posts: 16737
Joined: Feb 26, 2010 11:17 am
Country: Brisbane, Australia
Location: Brisbane, Australia.
Contact:

Re: One bang one process.

Post by Durro »


!
GENERAL MODNOTE
Folks, there's been a few personal jibes and quips in recent history on this thread. I'm going to ask everyone to dial back the personalizations and stick to addressing the topic, not the member.

Thanks.

Durro
I'll start believing in Astrology the day that all Sagittarians get hit by a bus, as predicted.
User avatar
Alan C
Posts: 3116
Joined: Feb 25, 2010 7:20 pm

Re: One bang one process.

Post by Alan C »

Spearthrower";p="905883 wrote:You can blame Herbert Spencer for that!

As far as I can recall, the reason why Darwin hardly ever used the term 'evolution' was because he was expressly not suggesting that there was 'progress', as that refers back to the scala natura, i.e. higher and lower beings. In fact, I remember reading Darwin's notes many years ago and recall him noting to himself in the margins something like 'don't use the term higher or lower when talking about organisms'. Quite distinctly, one of the main points he was making is that an amoeba is just as suitably evolved for its niche as an elephant is for its niche. All extant organisms are equally 'evolved', and if we were to put evolution as an axis on a graph, it would only infer time, not quality.

That does reflect back on some of your points incidentally. The notion of progressiveness, of moving towards something as if by intention.


Indeed. There a couple of attributes I wouldn't mind pinching from other organisms. More efficient healing/limb regrowth for one.
Lose it - it means go crazy, nuts, insane, bonzo, no longer in possession of one's faculties, three fries short of a happy meal, WACKO!! - Jack O'Neill
User avatar
Spearthrower
Posts: 33888
Joined: Feb 25, 2010 6:11 pm
Country: Thailand
Location: กรุงเทพมหานคร

Re: One bang one process.

Post by Spearthrower »

Biological immortality, immunity to various diseases and conditions, ability to see U.V., magnetoreception, gills, flight, armour plating.... wouldn't the universe be a different place if evolution worked like that? :)
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
hackenslash
Posts: 22910
Joined: Feb 25, 2010 2:26 pm
Name: The Other Sweary One
Country: Republic of Mancunia
Location: That niggling voice telling you you might be wrong...
Contact:

Re: One bang one process.

Post by hackenslash »

These days, I'd be happy to settle for a spine designed for walking upright...
pfrankinstein
Posts: 1814
Joined: Mar 27, 2011 12:42 am
Name: paul
Country: UK

Re: One bang one process.

Post by pfrankinstein »

This statement relates directly to life/species evolving:

From the furthest macroscopic perspective one can see NS as being: 1, type of environment reacting on 2, type of lifeform producing a selected result. The result relates to extinction or survival.

The above statement = the most basic explanation of NS. If you simply alter 'type of lifeform' for 'type of material', and also NS for 'Primal selection' then the first chapter of evolution, the process Primordial evolution [inorganic] becomes apparent.

..............................

I'm attempting to see evolution as a single process that begins with the bb. For there to be such an occurrence, for that to happen then evolution must be seen as being self perpetuating. Simply, in a nut shell envisage the bb as starting one process, that process creates multiple types of environments by way of planets in solar systems. =Variation in the expression of the single process.

Rushed.

Paul.




Because i tend to see everything as evolving [exploded view].
User avatar
LucidFlight
RS Donator
Posts: 10805
Joined: Feb 05, 2011 2:00 pm
Name: Kento
Country: UK/US/AU/SG
Contact:

Re: One bang one process.

Post by LucidFlight »

pfrankinstein";p="909651 wrote:... evolution must be seen as being self perpetuating.

Could you expand on this, please? Are you proposing some sort of mechanism for self perpetuation?
OFFICIAL MEMBER: QUANTUM CONSTRUCTOR CONSCIOUSNESS QUALIA KOALA COLLECTIVE.
hackenslash
Posts: 22910
Joined: Feb 25, 2010 2:26 pm
Name: The Other Sweary One
Country: Republic of Mancunia
Location: That niggling voice telling you you might be wrong...
Contact:

Re: One bang one process.

Post by hackenslash »

One question:

Can you identify the selection mechanisms?
User avatar
Spearthrower
Posts: 33888
Joined: Feb 25, 2010 6:11 pm
Country: Thailand
Location: กรุงเทพมหานคร

Re: One bang one process.

Post by Spearthrower »

While parsimony is a useful rule of thumb, it doesn't stand to reason that everything can be simplified down to one process. For this hypothesis to be acceptable, it will require more than just words to support it. It will require a mechanism, it will require an evidential basis, and as the suggestion is that this process started in the quark-gluon plasma after the initial expansion, it will require a logic shown through mathematical modelling.
I'm not an atheist; I just don't believe in gods :- that which I don't belong to isn't a group!
Religion: Mass Stockholm Syndrome

Learn Stuff. Stuff good. https://www.coursera.org/
pfrankinstein
Posts: 1814
Joined: Mar 27, 2011 12:42 am
Name: paul
Country: UK

Re: One bang one process.

Post by pfrankinstein »

Spearthrower";p="909706 wrote:While parsimony is a useful rule of thumb, it doesn't stand to reason that everything can be simplified down to one process.


There is strong circumstantial evidence that what i propose fits in with the observed with the observed evidence thus far.

1, One process, three domains, three types of selection, predominantly three broad types of Evolution.

2, The movement/evolution of selection from the non-conscious, subconscious to the conscious.

3, The fact that 'cognitive selection' emerged from 'natural selection'.

4, Chronological emergence.

5, Size of spheres/domains template the iceberg on consciousness.

6,The movement from basic to complexity of the process.

7, Rocks store knowledge, slightly more complex, DNA stores knowledge, and again, intelligence artificially stores knowledge outside of biology..

8, In the sphere of the inorganic, the cosmos, the process of Primordial evolution is at work.

Statement; *Everything that descends down through time becomes modified, the nature of that modification is always selected by the laws of physics, Primal selection.

For the statement to hold true, then 'descent with modification by means of natural selection' must have a primitive connotation also. Same words, modification in the meaning of the wordsby regression yes, but when crossed to Darwins meaning the words they still hold their new affirmative meaning.

9, The bb as the common ancestor.

..........................

We are in pseudoscience, mischief me yes.

The iceberg of consciousness, the pyramid, the all seeing eye.

Paul.
pfrankinstein
Posts: 1814
Joined: Mar 27, 2011 12:42 am
Name: paul
Country: UK

Re: One bang one process.

Post by pfrankinstein »

For this hypothesis to be acceptable, it will require more than just words to support it. It will require a mechanism, it will require an evidential basis, and as the suggestion is that this process started in the quark-gluon plasma after the initial expansion, it will require a logic shown through mathematical modelling.



Suppose i told you to go read a book , and then i asked you to explain briefly what happened in the first chapter, would you read all the chapter to me, or just give me the feel of the chapter broadly speaking?

Chapters of evolution thrower, for more You need to get off first base.

*The big bang a single beginning denotes a single process, that single process = evolution.

Paul.

http://youtu.be/C88yb-OVNmw
pfrankinstein
Posts: 1814
Joined: Mar 27, 2011 12:42 am
Name: paul
Country: UK

Re: One bang one process.

Post by pfrankinstein »

I'm attempting to see evolution as a single process that begins with the bb. For there to be such an occurrence, for that to happen then evolution must be seen as being self perpetuating.


The Primodial tree bore fruit, the Earth and a tree of life, the tree of life bore fruit, good intelligence [?]

Paul.
User avatar
LucidFlight
RS Donator
Posts: 10805
Joined: Feb 05, 2011 2:00 pm
Name: Kento
Country: UK/US/AU/SG
Contact:

Re: One bang one process.

Post by LucidFlight »

OFFICIAL MEMBER: QUANTUM CONSTRUCTOR CONSCIOUSNESS QUALIA KOALA COLLECTIVE.
Locked