Early Pauline letters debunked.

[Leucius Charinus]

[quote="dejuror";p="2783706"]
The Pauline character, letters and converts were not forgotten but were not yet fabricated up to the end of the 2nd century.

The NT Pauline character, letters and converts were invented no earlier than the 3rd century or later.[/quote]

Well we do know that the letter exchange between Paul and Seneca was a blatant forgery of the Nicene church industry in the 4th century. This provides a "terminus ad quem" or "latest possible date" for the appearance of the NT Pauline character, letters and converts.

Another item of evidence in relation to the reactions to Paul and the Pauline literature is found in the texts comprising the Nag Hammadi library (NHL). It is generally agreed that the NHL is a time capsule from the mid 4th century. The dating is reasonably secure and includes agreement between paleographic dating and scientific dating (C14).

Now, once we can find out who primarily benefitted from the fabrication of the Pauline character, writings and converts then we may be able to find out about what time period they were invented between c200-300 CE.

If we were to move the possible time period of the fabrication of the Pauline character, writings and converts to 325 CE then this leads us to a person who certainly became exceedingly rich as a result of the Christianisation of the Roman populace. At this time the gold, silver, treasures and many art works held in the most ancient and highly revered pagan temple networks of the eastern empire were looted. Many of the largest pagan temples dedicated to Apollo and his son Asclepius were utterly destroyed and in some cases the chief priests were publicly executed. The situation might be described as a hostile takeover of the pagan religious sector and associated industries.

In the fist place the looting of gold and treasure represented a monumentally huge financial benefit for the Christian cult. A one off huge transfer of wealth happened between the city of Alexander and the city of Constantine. In the long run the Christian cult - instead of the pagan cults - attracted all the revenue by tithing and donations in the religious sphere. The transfer of wealth continues through the Christian revolution of the 4th century during which time the succession of Christian emperors from Constantine to Theodosius cemented their support, protection and sponsorship of the Christian cult into the law codes of the Roman empire. Law by law. By 381 CE anyone not subscribing to the revised Nicene Creed were listed in the law codes as either heretics or madmen, and could be summarily dealt with by the imperial army.

Anyone following the money trail over which person actually benefited the most financially by the implementation of a fabricated Pauline character, writings and converts - indeed the entire NT writings - would be lead in no uncertain terms to the Pontifex Maximus Constantine.

[dejuror]

Well we do know that the letter exchange between Paul and Seneca was a blatant forgery of the Nicene church industry in the 4th century. This provides a "terminus ad quem" or "latest possible date" for the appearance of the NT Pauline character, letters and converts.

The forged letters between the supposed Paul and Seneca may indeed be the “latest possible date” however the earliest date for the fabrication of the Pauline character and Epistles appear to be sometime after c 175 CE.
The writings attributed to Justin

claimed it was 12 illiterate disciples who first preached the story of Jesus to the world which means that the author knew nothing at all of the so-called Paul, the Epistles or converts.
A writing attributed to Origen admitted that Celsus [175-177] when writing against the Christians in his “True Discourse” mentioned nothing at all of Paul and his Churches.

It therefore means, based on the evidence christian writings have provided, any writing which mentions a character called Paul who preached the story of Jesus around the world and that he wrote Epistles to converts are forgeries and also fiction.

Ignatius’ Epistles which mention Paul are most likely forgeries and fiction. [Ignatius could not have written Epistles while imprisoned]
The letter called “First Clement” from the Church of Rome c 95 CE which mentions Paul is a forgery and fiction. Many christian writers claim Clement was bishop of Rome c 67-78 CE not 95 CE.
“ Against Heresies” attributed to Irenaeus c 175 CE which mentions Paul is a forgery– a corrupted writing with multiple authors. It is virtually impossible for the same Irenaeus to have preached that Jesus was an old man [almost 50 years] when he was crucified and knew of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the supposed Pauline Epistles.
The Gospel according to Luke claimed Jesus was about 30 thirty years of age around the 15th year of Tiberius and that he was crucified under Pilate c 27-37 CE.

Essentially, Christian writings do show that Paul, the Epistles and converts were fabricated sometime after C 175 CE.
But, how much later??

Are there Christian writings in the 4th century that mention nothing of Paul, his Epistles and converts?
There is at least one christian writing attributed to Arnobius supposedly written c 305 CE where the author wrote nothing at all about the so-called Paul who preached the gospel to the world.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01746c.htm
Up to the 4th century, Arnobius claimed it was the apostles who were with Jesus who preached the gospel to the whole world.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/06311.htm

Arnobius’ Against the Heathen 1. 55

Nay, because they saw all these things to be done by Christ Himself and by His apostles, who being sent throughout the whole world carried with them the blessings of the Father, which they dispensed in benefiting as well the minds as the bodies of men

Based on the evidence I have seen so far in Christian and non-apologetic writings including Arnobius’ Against the Heathen” I am of the view the Pauline character, letters and converts are forgeries and fiction most likely fabricated by Romans sometime around the 4th century.

[Leucius Charinus]

Edward Gibbon wrote that "The scanty and suspicious materials of ecclesiastical history seldom enable us to dispel the dark cloud that hangs over the first age of the church."

[quote="dejuror";p="2783976"]The forged letters between the supposed Paul and Seneca may indeed be the “latest possible date” however the earliest date for the fabrication of the Pauline character and Epistles appear to be sometime after c 175 CE.
The writings attributed to Justin

claimed it was 12 illiterate disciples who first preached the story of Jesus to the world which means that the author knew nothing at all of the so-called Paul, the Epistles or converts.[/quote]

The earliest extant manuscript for "Saint" Justin is dated 1364 CE and is some form of "Omnibus edition".

The letter called “First Clement” from the Church of Rome c 95 CE which mentions Paul is a forgery and fiction. Many christian writers claim Clement was bishop of Rome c 67-78 CE not 95 CE.

Eusebius produces all sorts of lists of bishops. There is little evidence to get a bishop into Rome before the victory of the troops of Damasus over the troops of other prospective and competing would-be-bishops in the streets of Rome. Damasus kick-started the Latin church and the "PETER-WAS-HERE" tourism business. Damasus sponsored his pupil Jerome, in a lavish scriptorium to produce a Latin Bible. Damasus renovated the catacombs.

CLEMENT FORGERIES:
http://mountainman.com.au/essenes/autho ... 20Rome.htm
Joseph Wheless, "FORGERY IN CHRISTIANITY", 1930

“ Against Heresies” attributed to Irenaeus c 175 CE which mentions Paul is a forgery– a corrupted writing with multiple authors.

I agree with this assessment. Irenaeus is another fake source forged IMO by the (Latin) church industry of the 4th century. All the earliest manuscripts of "Against Heresies" are Latin. WARNING. WARNING.

Essentially, Christian writings do show that Paul, the Epistles and converts were fabricated sometime after C 175 CE.
But, how much later??

Are there Christian writings in the 4th century that mention nothing of Paul, his Epistles and converts?

Christian writings took a dramatic turn once there was a Nicene Creed. Many of the NT Apocryphal writings were composed in response to the political appearance of the NT Bible codex c.325 CE. The post Nicene political context seems to have involved a massive theological controversy over Christian writings. The writings of Arius of Alexandria were to be burnt under peril of death if they were discovered on your bookshelf.

Paul seems to have taken a back seat.

There is at least one christian writing attributed to Arnobius supposedly written c 305 CE where the author wrote nothing at all about the so-called Paul who preached the gospel to the world.

https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01746c.htm
Up to the 4th century, Arnobius claimed it was the apostles who were with Jesus who preached the gospel to the whole world.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/06311.htm

Arnobius’ Against the Heathen 1. 55

Nay, because they saw all these things to be done by Christ Himself and by His apostles, who being sent throughout the whole world carried with them the blessings of the Father, which they dispensed in benefiting as well the minds as the bodies of men

Based on the evidence I have seen so far in Christian and non-apologetic writings including Arnobius’ Against the Heathen” I am of the view the Pauline character, letters and converts are forgeries and fiction most likely fabricated by Romans sometime around the 4th century.

Bruno Bauer proposed something very similar. He thought all the Pauline letters were fabricated and that Paul had been invented. He says:

* the writer of Mark's gospel was "an Italian, at home both in Rome and Alexandria";
* that of Matthew's gospel "a Roman, nourished by the spirit of Seneca";
* Christianity is essentially "Stoicism triumphant in a Jewish garb."


I also think the NT is the product of a Roman architect.

What is the evidence that Roman political propaganda has been
weaved together in the canonical Jesus Story Book?

GOSPELS:

(1) Pay tax to Caesar;
(2) Give Caesar whatever he asks for;
(3) In all Judea it is the centurion who has greatest faith;
(4) Go the extra mile carrying the soldiers pack;
(5) Be compliant and turn the other cheek;
(6) Support the Roman military industrial complex and go out and buy a sword (or two);
(7) the management of money, property and tithing for the church (industry)
(8) the massive proliferation of the abbreviation of "sacred names" (nomina sacra)
is neither Jewish or Greek but a distinctive trait of the Romans; (And so on and so forth.
(9) Codex media which becomes popular in the 4th century was used for the earliest physical
Christian manuscripts. This was very expensive exercise (The Roman Martial mentions?)

(10) Greek "episkopos" (bishop) also means "spy". (particularly relevant in the 4th century)

(11) SETTING: NT supposedly written within the Roman empire (Palestine) - ruled by Rome.

(12) Christianos: Etymology. The Greek word Χριστιανός (Christianos), meaning "follower of Christ",
comes from Χριστός (Christos), meaning "anointed one", with an adjectival ending borrowed from
Latin to denote adhering to, or even belonging to, as in slave ownership.

(13) Obsessive COPY/PASTE from greek LXX to greek NT (literary school) ??

(14) Earliest references to "Christians" (excluding TF) are all Roman = emperor Trajan, statesman Pliny, historian Tacitus

(15) Pray for Romans ("your enemies") on you way to the feeding of the lions

(16) GRAVITAS: Don't laugh !! Jesus and the NT is serious business ----

"'Gravitas' was the typical Roman virtue. By 'gravitas' they meant the type of personality that must be taken seriously; they were serious men themselves and they demanded that they should be treated with respect." --- The Roman Character, SPQR; Kennedy & White (1944)




(90) JC=Julius Caesar and Augustus the son of god


PAUL:

101) The Epistle to the Romans is the sixth book in the New Testament. Biblical scholars agree
that it was composed by Paul the Apostle to explain that salvation is offered through the gospel of Jesus Christ.




Romans 13: paraphrasing:

102) "People should be subject to the government - which is appointed by God.
103) Obey these agents of God on earth". [1]

[dejuror]

Based on the evidence I have seen so far the writer called Paul in the NT is a product of fiction and forgeries invented extremely late, possibly the late 3rd century or early 4th century.
It is claimed that absence of historical evidence for the NT writer called Paul does not mean he did not exist however such a claim is really useless since absence of historical evidence for Paul does not mean he existed.

In fact, if Paul did not exist there will not/never be any historical evidence of his existence.

All fictitious characters have no historical evidence.

Absence of historical evidence for Paul supports the argument that he did not exist.

It is also very important to note that the NT writer called Paul made claims in the so-called Epistles that appear to expose his fictional accounts.

There multiple historical problems for the NT writer called Paul.

1. There is no historical evidence for NT Paul, the Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. The acquaintances of NT Paul have no historical evidence.
3. Writings which mention Paul have been deemed to be forgeries.
4. The NT Epistles under the name of Paul do not have any historical markers.
5. Events in the Epistles, like the persecution by Paul, have no historical evidence.
6. Many Christian writers make no mention of NT Paul and the so-called Pauline Epistles.
7. NT writings do not corroborate claims by NT Paul.

Examine the Epistle to the Galatians.

Galatians 1.

13 For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it

When did the Pauline persecution happen?

There is no historical support for the persecution of any cult of Jews who worshiped a man called Jesus as a resurrected son of God in any writing of those who wrote about events in Judea from the time of Tiberius to the end of the 1st century.

Examine all the so-called Pauline Epistles-- there is no historical information about the supposed persecution of the Church--none.
Look at Galatians 1.15-16. Again there is no historical data for God's revelation of Jesus to the Pauline writer.

Galatians 1.15

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood

In order to derive when the epistle to the Galatians was written then it would be essential to know when God revealed his Son to NT Paul. There is nothing.

Look at Galatians 1.17-19

Galatians 1

17 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.

19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.

When did NT Paul go to Arabia? How long was NT Paul in Arabia?
Who were the apostles Peter and James the Lord's brother?
Are there any historical references to the apostles Peter and James the Lord's brother?

The stories of persecution, revelation and traveling to Arabia, Damascus and Jerusalem in the Epistle to the Galatians are without historical evidence and also without corroboration by Christian writings in and out the NT.

[Leucius Charinus]

[quote="dejuror";p="2789307"]Based on the evidence I have seen so far the writer called Paul in the NT is a product of fiction and forgeries invented extremely late, possibly the late 3rd century or early 4th century.
It is claimed that absence of historical evidence for the NT writer called Paul does not mean he did not exist however such a claim is really useless since absence of historical evidence for Paul does not mean he existed.

In fact, if Paul did not exist there will not/never be any historical evidence of his existence.

All fictitious characters have no historical evidence.

Absence of historical evidence for Paul supports the argument that he did not exist.

It is also very important to note that the NT writer called Paul made claims in the so-called Epistles that appear to expose his fictional accounts.

There multiple historical problems for the NT writer called Paul.

1. There is no historical evidence for NT Paul, the Pharisee of the tribe of Benjamin.
2. The acquaintances of NT Paul have no historical evidence.
3. Writings which mention Paul have been deemed to be forgeries.
4. The NT Epistles under the name of Paul do not have any historical markers.
5. Events in the Epistles, like the persecution by Paul, have no historical evidence.
6. Many Christian writers make no mention of NT Paul and the so-called Pauline Epistles.
7. NT writings do not corroborate claims by NT Paul.[/quote]

8. The only non biblical reference to the historical existence of Paul is found in the forged letter exchange between Paul and Seneca. The Christians prefaced their circulation of the literature of Seneca with this fabricated letter exchange for a thousand years before it was "removed from the evidence". What could possibly go wrong believing that Paul existed?

[dejuror]

My argument is that the so-called Pauline letters are very late writings. The Gospels were already written before the supposed Pauline writers composed their Epistles.

In effect, the so-called Paul was using stories about Jesus in the Gospels under the guise that he had received revelations from the ascended Jesus.

In Galatians 1 The so-called self proclaimed apostle Paul declared:

Galatians 1.11-12

But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.

For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

It is clear that whether or not NT Jesus lived he could not have given the supposed Paul any information about events during his alleged lifetime when he (Jesus) was already ascended to heaven.

The so-called Pauline writer was knowingly lying about his sources for his stories about Jesus.

It was virtually impossible for the ascended Jesus to reveal anything to Paul.

Examine 1 Corinthians 11

1 Corinthians 11.

23-25 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:

24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.

25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

Now, look at Justin's First Apology

Justin's First Apology LXVI

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone..

The Corinthian letter writer claimed he got his Last supper story by revelation from Jesus.
Justin Martyr claimed he got the Last Supper story from the Gospels.

Which writer is more credible?

It is obvious that Justin Martyr appears far more credible than the so-called Pauline writers.

However it is not only than Justin is far more credible than the supposed Paul but that it seems that the Epistle writer was using Justin Martyr's First Apology as his source of revelation from Jesus.


Justin's First Apology

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them....

1 Corinthians 11

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you.....

The Corinthians writer received nothing from the Lord but from Justin's First Apology.

Justin's First Apology was addressed to the Emperor Antoninus so was written no earlier than c 138-161 CE.

[dejuror]

It is claimed in Acts of the Apostles that a character called Saul/Paul preached about Jesus in multiple cities and region in the Roman Empire. It is stated in the same book that Saul/Paul was in Rome (Acts 28), Corinth (Acts 18), Galatia (18), Thessalonica (Acts 17), Philipp (Acts 16)i, and Ephesus (Acts 19).

In Acts Saul/Paul supposedly performed miracles and many received the Holy Spirit and began to speak in tongues after Saul/Paul laid hands on them.

Acts 19 6&11-12

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.......11 And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: 12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Saul/Paul appears to have equaled or out-performed the 12 apostles of Jesus

Saul'Paul should have been well known in the Roman Empire as one of the early evangelist of the gospel whether or not he wrote letters to churches and without Acts of the Apostles.

Saul/Paul should have been known physically to multiple governors of Judea (Festus and Felix) , to King Agrippa and Bernice, and Gamaliel doctor of the Law yet in less than 100 years Aristides and Justin writing between 117-161 CE knew nothing at all about Saul/Paul's evangelism in the Roman Empire.

Justin's First Apology "

For from Jerusalem there went out into the world, men, twelve in number, and these illiterate, of no ability in speaking: but by the power of God they proclaimed to every race of men that they were sent by Christ to teach to all the word of God.

Saul/Paul, the stories of Paul in Acts, his commission to preach the gospel, his miracles, letters and churches are unknown by Aristides and Justin.

However , about 250 years later, around c 313 CE, Lanctantius a Christian writer seems to know about Paul .

Lactantius' Of the Manner in Which the Persecutors Died

His apostles were at that time eleven in number, to whom were added Matthias, in the room of the traitor Judas, and afterwards Paul. Then were they dispersed throughout all the earth to preach the Gospel, as the Lord their Master had commanded them; and during twenty-five years, and until the beginning of the reign of the Emperor Nero, they occupied themselves in laying the foundations of the Church in every province and city.

It is clear that the so-called apostle Paul and letters were invented at least sometime between 175 CE and at least 300 CE.

[dejuror]

When one examines the so-called Pauline letters it is seen that those epistles had no influence whatsoever on early christian writers and the christian religion.

In the Epistle to the Galatians the so-called Paul claimed he was commissioned to preach to the Gentiles (the uncircumsised) and in Acts it is stated Paul was physically preaching all over the Roman Empire and was in Greece.

Now look at the teaching of the so-called Paul about the second coming in Epistle to the Thessalonians 1 Thess. 4.16-18

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

In effect, in the Pauline teaching, Christians who have died would resurrect and meet Jesus Christ in the clouds.

But, now look at Justin's Dialogue with Trypho.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... rypho.html

Justin's Dialogue with Trypho LXXXI

And further, there was a certain man with us, whose name was John, one of the apostles of Christ, who prophesied, by a revelation that was made to him, that those who believed in our Christ would dwell a thousand years in Jerusalem; and that thereafter the general, and, in short, the eternal resurrection and judgment of all men would likewise take place..

Justin's teaching of the second coming is based directly on the supposed Apocalypse of John an apostle where it is claimed Christians would be with Jesus in the new Jerusalem on earth for a thousand years.

It is claimed the apostle John had his revelation of the second coming on the isle of Patmos which is about 370 kilometers from Greece.

Justin who lived in Greece knew nothing of the so-called Pauline Epistles where Paul physically preached in Corinth but knew of writings called the Apocalypse of the apostle John.where he (John) supposedly lived 370 kilometers away in the islse of Patmos.

The so-called teachings of Paul about the 2nd coming of Jesus where resurrected christians would meet him in the clouds was invented at least after c 150 CE or after the writings of Justin Martyr.

[dejuror]

Christian writings confirm that the so-called Pauline letters were very late.

Examine a Christian writing called the Muratorian Canon.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... orian.html

The Muratorian Canon

.......the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name, in this order: the first to the Corinthians, the second to the Ephesians, the third to the Philippians, the fourth to the Colossians, the fifth to the Galatians, the sixth to the Thessalonians, the seventh to the Romans.

Now look at the Revelation of John.

Revelation 1.10-11

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

The author of the Apocalypse had revelations and was told by the voice of Jesus to write to seven churches.
In Acts of the Apostles, Saul/Paul heard the voice of Jesus, had revelations in the Epistles and wrote to seven churches.

However, it is seen that not only was the supposed Paul using the Revelation of John the author but was also using stories found in the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles.

In the Gospels, NT Jesus appointed twelve apostles to preach the Gospel and heal the sick.

Mark 3

14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils

The supposed Paul declared himself an apostle through revelation from the resurrected Jesus.

Galatians 1:1

Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

In the Gospels, after the resurrection, NT Jesus commissioned his twelve apostles to preach the gospel to all nations.

Matthew 28.19

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

In the Epistle to the Galatians the writer claimed he was commissioned to preach to the uncircumcised.

Galatians 2.7

But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter

In Acts of the Apostles it is claimed that the apostles of Jesus received the power of the holy Ghost and had spoke in tongues.

Acts 2.4

And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

In the Epistles to the Corinthians stated he spoke in tongues more than everyone.

1 Corinthians 14:18

I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all

The character called Paul is a fabricated carbon copy of the Gospels, Acts of the Apostles and the Apocalypse of John.

[Leucius Charinus]

Christian writings confirm that the so-called Pauline letters were very late.

Examine a Christian writing called the Muratorian Canon.

https://www.earlychristianwritings.com/ ... orian.html

The Muratorian Canon

.......the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name, in this order: the first to the Corinthians, the second to the Ephesians, the third to the Philippians, the fourth to the Colossians, the fifth to the Galatians, the sixth to the Thessalonians, the seventh to the Romans.

• The Muratorian fragment, also known as the Muratorian Canon (Latin: Canon Muratori), is a copy of perhaps the oldest known list of most of the books of the New Testament. The fragment, consisting of 85 lines, is a Latin manuscript bound in a roughly 8th-century codex from the library of Columbanus's monastery at Bobbio Abbey; it contains features suggesting it is a translation from a Greek original written in the late 2nd century (c. 170–200). Other scholars suggest it might have been originally written as late as the 4th century, although this is not the consensus opinion.
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muratorian_fragment

The earliest extant manuscript for this is the 8th century. There are no Christian manuscripts that can be unambiguously dated prior to the 3rd century and nearly all manuscripts are from codices. Any investigator of Christian origins has to confront the fact that there is zero primary evidence for anything Christian - whether physical manuscripts or archeological artefacts - older than the 3rd century. Those dated to the 3rd century rely on paleographical (handwriting) assessments in isolation. Most of these are questionable.

Very soon it will be 2025 and thus 1700 years after the boundary event known as the Nicene council which inaugurated the political Christian revolution of the 4th century.

Did the powerful imperially sponsored
Nicene Church industry
of the later 4th and subsequent centuries
fabricate its historical origins?

[dejuror]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muratorian_fragment


The earliest extant manuscript for this is the 8th century.There are no Christian manuscripts that can be unambiguously dated prior to the 3rd century and nearly all manuscripts are from codices. Any investigator of Christian origins has to confront the fact that there is zero primary evidence for anything Christian - whether physical manuscripts or archeological artefacts - older than the 3rd century. Those dated to the 3rd century rely on paleographical (handwriting) assessments in isolation. Most of these are questionable.

Very soon it will be 2025 and thus 1700 years after the boundary event known as the Nicene council which inaugurated the political Christian revolution of the 4th century.

My position is that even though the Muratorian Canon is claimed to have been written c 170-200 CE it is still evidence from Christian writings that the so-called Paul and Pauline Epistles were invented after the supposed Paul was already dead.

In Christian writings it said that NT Paul died under Nero or no later than c 68 CE.

Examine Eusebius' Church History.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm

Eusebius' Church History 2.25. 5

It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero.

It is also claimed the apostle John was banished to the isle of Patmos and was alive in the time of Emperor Trajan c 98-117 CE.

Eusebius' Church History 3.23.3

And all the elders that associated with John the disciple of the Lord in Asia bear witness that John delivered it to them. For he remained among them until the time of Trajan.

Church History 3.20.11

11. It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition.

Revelation 1:9

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In the Muratorian Canon it is claimed the so-called Paul followed his predecessor John and wrote to seven Churches which implies the so-called Pauline letters from the assumed Paul were written at least no earlier than 98 -117 CE.

[Leucius Charinus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muratorian_fragment


The earliest extant manuscript for this is the 8th century.There are no Christian manuscripts that can be unambiguously dated prior to the 3rd century and nearly all manuscripts are from codices. Any investigator of Christian origins has to confront the fact that there is zero primary evidence for anything Christian - whether physical manuscripts or archeological artefacts - older than the 3rd century. Those dated to the 3rd century rely on paleographical (handwriting) assessments in isolation. Most of these are questionable.

Very soon it will be 2025 and thus 1700 years after the boundary event known as the Nicene council which inaugurated the political Christian revolution of the 4th century.

Did the powerful imperially sponsored
Nicene Church industry
of the later 4th and subsequent centuries
fabricate its historical origins?

(As a Noble Lie) ?

My position is that even though the Muratorian Canon is claimed to have been written c 170-200 CE it is still evidence from Christian writings that the so-called Paul and Pauline Epistles were invented after the supposed Paul was already dead.

The question here is whether Paul actually lived in order to die or whether we are dealing with a NOBLE LIE

• In Plato's The Republic, a noble lie is a myth or a lie knowingly propagated by an elite to maintain social harmony. Plato presented the noble lie (γενναῖον ψεῦδος, gennaion pseudos)[2] in the fictional tale known as the myth or parable of the metals in Book III. In it, Socrates provides the origin of the three social classes who compose the republic proposed by Plato. Socrates proposes and claims that if the people believed "this myth...[it] would have a good effect, making them more inclined to care for the state and one another."[3]
  
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_lie

In Christian writings it said that NT Paul died under Nero or no later than c 68 CE.

Examine Eusebius' Church History.

https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250103.htm

Eusebius' Church History 2.25. 5

It is, therefore, recorded that Paul was beheaded in Rome itself, and that Peter likewise was crucified under Nero.

It is also claimed the apostle John was banished to the isle of Patmos and was alive in the time of Emperor Trajan c 98-117 CE.

Eusebius' Church History 3.23.3

And all the elders that associated with John the disciple of the Lord in Asia bear witness that John delivered it to them. For he remained among them until the time of Trajan.

Church History 3.20.11

11. It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition.

Revelation 1:9

I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In the Muratorian Canon it is claimed the so-called Paul followed his predecessor John and wrote to seven Churches which implies the so-called Pauline letters from the assumed Paul were written at least no earlier than 98 -117 CE.

This is correct --- we have an earliest possible date.
What is now required is a latest possible date.
Why is that?

• The source-critical methods for dating texts - including biblical texts - are those familiar from classical studies, deductively establishing "terminus a quo" and "ad quem" dates between which the composition of the text under investigation must have taken place. The latest possible dates of composition (terminus ad quem) is fixed by the earliest proof of existence of the texts, such as (rarely) the earliest physical copy, or (commonly) the first quotation or other utilisation of the text by some other datable work. The earliest possible date of composition (terminus a quo) is usually fixed by the latest datable work the text in question quotes or utilises, or by the latest historical allusion within the text.
  
  Extracted from Berossus and Genesis, Manetho and Exodus: Hellenistic Histories and the Date of the Pentateuch, (The Library of Hebrew Bible/Old Testament Studies) Hardcover – May 15, 2006 Russell Gmirkin

The latest possible date is the 4th century. This coincides with the date of composition of the one and only "History of the Church" written by Dear Eusebius, and the forged letter exchange between Paul and Seneca.

Did Eusebius promote a "Noble Lie" for the benefit of the Nicene Church industry?

• "How far it may be proper to use falsehood
  as a medium for the benefit of those
  who require to be deceived;"
  
  --- Eusebius Pamphilus of Caesarea, (circa 324)
  PE: Praeparatio Evangelica, Preparation for the Gospel,
  The title of Chapter 31 of Book 12.

[dejuror]

1. If NT Jesus did exist he would have been only human.
2. In the NT Jesus died and was buried for at least three days.
3. After his death and burial NT Jesus could not have revealed anything to the authors of the .supposed Pauline Epistles.
4. Saul/Paul could not have heard the voice of NT Jesus after he was dead and buried.
5. NT Paul could not have been commissioned to preach the gospel by NT Jesus after he was dead and buried.

In effect, from the very start it can be observed that the supposed Pauline claims about his commission and revelations from the dead and buried NT Jesus were fabricated.

The following are examples of the blatant fabrications of the so-called Paul.

1 Corinthians 15

3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scripture..

Galatians 1.11-12

11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 2:8

(For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles..

1 Corinthians 11:23

For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread...

If NT Jesus did exist and actually had 12 hand picked apostles whom he commissioned to preach the gospel, heal the sick and cast out demons then it is immediately realized that the so-called Paul would have been been regarded as a fraudster.

Mark 3

4 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

15 And to have power to heal sicknesses, and to cast out devils..

Again, it is easily observed that the so-called Paul is an invented apostle who was later added to stories of Jesus.

The late addition of the so-called Paul and letters can be easily shown by examining Christian writings up to the 4th century.

Aristides in his Apology (c 117 -138 CE) did not know of NT Paul and the Epistles.
Justin Martyr in his First Apology ( c 138-160 CE) did not know of NT Paul and his Epistles.
Tertullian in his Apology (c 197 CE) did not know of NT Paul and his Epistles.
Origen in "Against Celsus" (c 245 CE) admitted Celsus wrote nothing about Paul.
Arnobius in "Against the Heathen" (c 305 CE) did not know of Paul and his Epistles.

NT Paul and the Epistles were late writings (massive forgeries) introduced by the Roman government post c 305 CE in the development of their Catholic (universal) Church.

[Leucius Charinus]

1. If NT Jesus did exist he would have been only human.
2. In the NT Jesus died and was buried for at least three days.
3. After his death and burial NT Jesus could not have revealed anything to the authors of the .supposed Pauline Epistles.
4. Saul/Paul could not have heard the voice of NT Jesus after he was dead and buried.
5. NT Paul could not have been commissioned to preach the gospel by NT Jesus after he was dead and buried.

In effect, from the very start it can be observed that the supposed Pauline claims about his commission and revelations from the dead and buried NT Jesus were fabricated.

The following are examples of the blatant fabrications of the so-called Paul.

That is the first step.

The next step is to investigate who fabricated the NT and Paul and when this fabrication was undertaken.

Until we have an explanation for both these events the investigation is incomplete

[dejuror]

1. If NT Jesus did exist he would have been only human.
2. In the NT Jesus died and was buried for at least three days.
3. After his death and burial NT Jesus could not have revealed anything to the authors of the .supposed Pauline Epistles.
4. Saul/Paul could not have heard the voice of NT Jesus after he was dead and buried.
5. NT Paul could not have been commissioned to preach the gospel by NT Jesus after he was dead and buried.

In effect, from the very start it can be observed that the supposed Pauline claims about his commission and revelations from the dead and buried NT Jesus were fabricated.

The following are examples of the blatant fabrications of the so-called Paul.

That is the first step.

The next step is to investigate who fabricated the NT and Paul and when this fabrication was undertaken.

Until we have an explanation for both these events the investigation is incomplete

There was no NT and Paul before at least c 300 CE as is easily observed when examining the following writings:
1. Aristides' Apology
2. Justin's First Apology.
3. Athenagoras' Plea for the Christians.
4. Theophilus' Theophilus to Autolycus
5. Tertullian's Apology.
6. Origen's Against Celsus.
7.. Arnobius' Against the Heathen.
8.. Ephrem's Against Marcion.

Based on existing writings I argue that the NT and Paul were invented by the Roman Government no earlier than c 300 CE.

[Leucius Charinus]

We are on the same page

[dejuror]

One of the most illogical claim by many NT Scholars is that an NT letter writer named Paul actually wrote letters to the Romans, Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians and Thessalonians before c 66 CE.

Once it was determined by Scholars that the NT Epistles under the name of Paul were actually products of more than one author then it would be virtually impossible to determine the actual author any of those epistles.

In the NT, the author of Acts of the Apostles, a supposed close companion of the character Paul does not mention anywhere that Paul wrote letters to anyone in the Roman Empire.


1.Saul'Paul's persecution of Christians in Jerusalem was made up.
2. Saul/Paul's bright light conversion and hearing the voice of a supposed already dead Jesus were made up.
3. Saul/Paul's apostleship of a supposed already dead Jesus was made up.
4. Paul's revelations from God about a supposed already dead Jesus were made up.
5 Paul's gospel from a supposed already dead Jesus was made up.
6. Paul's commission from a supposed already dead Jesus to preach to the uncircumcised was made up.


Based on the NT and other writings from antiquity all the letters under the name of Paul are falsely attributed to a made up character.

The letters under the name of Paul appear to be the writings of the Roman Government and reflect the teachings of the Roman Catholic (Universal) Church. sometime c 300 CE or later.

Examine the words of the Roman Government in the Epistle to the Galatians.

Galatians 1:9

As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Examine the words of the Roman Government in the Epistle to the Romans.

Romans 13:1-2

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

[Leucius Charinus]

Examine the words of the Roman Government in the Epistle to the Romans.

Romans 13:1-2

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Pro-Roman propaganda abounds in Paul and throughout the NT in general:

Rom 13 - "People should be subject to the government - which is appointed by God.

Rom 13 - "Obey these agents of God on earth".

(Romans 13 gives rise to the "Divine Right of Kings". The first example of a ruler using this "Divine Right" was given as Louis XIV. But is there any reason to pass over the divine rule of the Emperor Constantine? )