Endler's livebearer- Sub species or species?

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Endler's livebearer- Sub species or species?

#1  Postby cherubfish » Aug 26, 2012 5:32 pm

It seems to be quite a debate whether the Endler's livebearer ( Poecilia wingei )
really is eligible for its "species" status.

Because, they can fully interbreed with regular guppies Poecilia reticulata and produce fertile offsprings.

I know that the definition of what a "species" is is still subject to debate, but is this exactly why Endler's could be called a species?

Or is it because the keepers/ pet shops/ aficionados just want it to be different?

Or are you starting to have a go at stuff like ring species?
(In this case, what are the 2 end species then?)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just curious to know what everyone thinks.
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Re: Endler's livebearer- Sub species or species?

#2  Postby Calilasseia » Aug 30, 2012 5:53 am

If the taxonomically designated "Poecilia wingei" is fully interfertile with Poecilia reticulata, then the two different taxonomic designations are merely being applied to different populations of the same species. However, in the world of Poeciliid livebearers, matters are more complex, because there exist other taxonomically separate species that can hybridise and produce fertile offspring, suggesting that they're more correctly to be considered incipient species. For example, Xiphophorus maculatus, the Platy, can hybridise with Xiphophorus hellerii, the Swordtail, even though assortative mating probably keeps the two separate in the wild. I suspect that there are other members of the Genus Xiphophorus that exhibit the same hybridisation capability, one of the likely candidates being Xiphophorus montezumae (or whatever it's known as after any taxonomic revisions).

Which all goes to show once more, that biology has a habit of completely ignoring our desire for nice, tidy categories. :)

I would hazard a guess that Endler's Livebearers are isolated from other Poecilia reticulata populations, have been for some time, and as a corollary, exhibit some interesting genetic divergence, but obviously not enough to warrant true species designation at this moment. This will probably change in the future, but as an example of the sort of issues to watch out for, here's a paper to peruse for a while:

Mating Behaviour In The Endangered Sonoran Topminnow: Speciation In Action by C. R. Hurt, S. Stears-Ellis, K. A. Hughes & P. W. Hedrick, Animal Behaviour, 67(2): 343-351 (2004) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Hurt et al, 2004 wrote:Two species of the endangered Sonoran topminnow, Poeciliopsis occidentalis and P. sonoriensis, occur in two isolated drainage systems in southeast Arizona, U.S.A., and are allopatric throughout their range. Although these two taxa are morphologically very similar, and have been previously described as the same species or subspecies, several molecular studies have since indicated that they differ more than their morphology suggests. To determine whether the behaviours of the two species function as premating barriers to reproduction, we investigated their mating preferences and behavioural patterns in a laboratory setting. Results from no-choice mating observations showed that the mating behaviours of the two species differ. Observations conducted during multiple-choice mating trials provided evidence of assortative mating, suggesting an early stage of premating reproductive isolation.


With respect to the Endler's Livebearer saga, this paper is apposite:

Sex Chromosomes And Sexual Selection In Poeciliid Fishes by Anna Lindholm & Felix Braden, The American Naturalist, 160: S214-S224 (December 2002) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Lindholm & Braden, 2002 wrote:Abstract: We propose that the evolution of female preferences can be strongly influenced by linkage of attractive male traits to the Y chromosome and female preferences to the X chromosome in male heterogametic species. Such linkage patterns are predicted by models of the evolution of sexually antagonistic genes. Subsequent recombination of attractive male characters from the Y to the X would create physical linkage between attractive male trait and preference. A literature survey shows that Y linkage of potentially sexually antagonistic traits is common in poeciliid fishes and other species with sex chromosomes that are not well differentiated, but may also occur in taxa with degenerate Y chromosomes. In the guppy, attractive male traits are primarily Y and X linked; a literature review of the inheritance of sex-limited attractive male characters suggests that 16 are Y linked, 24 recombine between the X and Y, two are X linked, and two are autosomal. Crosses and backcrosses between high female preference (Endler’s live-bearers) and low female preference (Rio San Miguel) guppy populations show that this character has a strong additive genetic component and that it will be possible to investigate the physical linkage of male and female sexually selected characters in this species through mapping studies.


Another apposite paper is this one:

Population Differentiation Without Speciation by Anna E. Magurran, Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London Part B, 353: 275-286 (28th February 1998) [Full paper downloadable from here]

Magurran, 1998 wrote:

Population differentiation is often viewed as an important step towards speciation, and part of the rationale for conserving variation at the intraspecific level is that the potential to generate more biological diversity should be retained. Yet, speciation is not an inevitable consequence of population divergence. This paper reviews recent work on the Trinidadian guppy, Poecilia reticulata, a species that is renowned for its capacity for population differentiation. Guppy populations evolve rapidly, within 101 to 102 generations, as a response to changes in selection exerted by predators. The rates of evolution involved can be up to seven orders of magnitude greater than those seen in the fossil record. Sexual selection, particuarly female choice, appears to reinforce the divergence that natural selection has generated. Perplexingly, however, there is no reproductive isolation (either prezygotic or postzygotic) between populations, even those that have been separated for at least 106 generations. Sexual conflict may be the key to explaining this absence of speciation. Male reproductive behaviour, particularly the high incidence of sneaky mating, may be instrumental in producing suffcient gene flow to prevent reproductive isolation. Sneaky mating has the potential to undermine female choice, and is known to be an important means of sperm transfer in wild populations. Sexual dimorphism, also a result of sexual conflict in guppies, may inhibit speciation in another way. Morphological di¡erences between the sexes, that have arisen for reproductive reasons, mean that males and females are pre-adapted for di¡erent foraging niches. This, in turn, reduces the opportunity for the development of feeding polymorphisms, a mechanism that seems to have been important in the sympatric speciation of other fish species.


This should provide many hours of entertaining reading - I know it'll keep me happy for a while! :)
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Re: Endler's livebearer- Sub species or species?

#3  Postby cherubfish » Aug 31, 2012 5:35 pm

Cali, you are the best.
I learnt a lot from you as usual :)


I do feel that biology is making fun of us humans :grin:
I remember when I was in primary school, there used to be 5 kingdoms, but now there exist published materials on new systems like 7 kingdoms, or even the domain system.

I recently found that some plant articles on Wikipedia have unranked classifications.
It seems that they could only be slightly more certain on phylum, genus and species but not the stuff in between :confused:
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Re: Endler's livebearer- Sub species or species?

#4  Postby Calilasseia » Sep 01, 2012 10:55 pm

Phylogeny appears to be rather difficult to reconcile with the classical Linnaean system. :)

The problem being of course, that Linnaeus based his system upon comparative anatomy, without any knowledge of evolutionary history, and so erected classes for various vertebrates, for example, only for everything previously included in its own class (amphibians, reptiles, birds, mammals) to be found later to be a nested subclade of the Sarcopterygii. :)

At least the Actinopterygii didn't end up with quite so many headaches attached to it.

Part of the problem, of course, is that the Linnaean taxonomic system is a ranked classification system, and what we now know about phylogeny makes a mockery of Linnaeus' original rankings in the case of the vertebrates. In the case of the insects, the problem you have isn't wholesale reassignment of ranks, it's rather that the sheer number of species makes it necessary to erect vast new subdivisions to accommodate them all. When you have 400,000 or so species of beetle alone known to science, and potentially another million waiting in the wings, the number of subdivisions required to make sense of them all rapidly becomes alarming! :)
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Re: Endler's livebearer- Sub species or species?

#5  Postby Berthold » Oct 08, 2012 6:26 pm

Calilasseia wrote:For example, Xiphophorus maculatus, the Platy, can hybridise with Xiphophorus hellerii, the Swordtail, even though assortative mating probably keeps the two separate in the wild.

This brought to my mind that I have read somewhere (sorry, can't give a source) that the females of non - sword bearing species of this genus are strongly attracted by sword bearing males. Considering that non - sword bearing species continue to exist: would you say that the researchers had an exceptional sample (or that their work was flawed in other respects)?
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Re: Endler's livebearer- Sub species or species?

#6  Postby cherubfish » Mar 12, 2013 12:19 pm

Berthold wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:For example, Xiphophorus maculatus, the Platy, can hybridise with Xiphophorus hellerii, the Swordtail, even though assortative mating probably keeps the two separate in the wild.

This brought to my mind that I have read somewhere (sorry, can't give a source) that the females of non - sword bearing species of this genus are strongly attracted by sword bearing males. Considering that non - sword bearing species continue to exist: would you say that the researchers had an exceptional sample (or that their work was flawed in other respects)?

What sparked in my mind upon first glance-- Amazon Mollies have no swords, whilst the species around them might have.
(Some Sailfin Mollies have swords)

Amazon Molly is a female only species that relies on males of other species to activate the gamete, but in fact rarely uses any genetic material from the male. The daughters are usually complete clones of the mother.


Perhaps you were talking about this, but perhaps swords are independent to a fish's species.
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Re: Endler's livebearer- Sub species or species?

#7  Postby cherubfish » Mar 13, 2013 12:53 pm

by the way...
swords in guppies is a multi-allele factor, even in pure guppy strains-- they don't have to be Endler-hybrids to have swords.
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