willhud9 wrote:Thomas Eshuis wrote:willhud9 wrote:Thomas Eshuis wrote:Well again as pointed out in other threads. The Church donates a lot to charity.
That doesn't make even larger donations pointless.
No but how much until its good enough?
Red herring.
We were discussing whether it would be pointless or not.
You do know what pointless means right? It means...without a point. Go figure.
What does giving its money away ultimately fix? Nothing. It gives a lot. Giving more doesn't necessarily fix anything any more. There will always be poor people and there will always be disasters and tragedy no matter how much money is tossed at something.
It's in the interests of the church to keep people poor and uneducated. If they were encouraged to have smaller families, get better education and be more informed, they'd stop giving money to the Church.
So yes. Pointless. It is an arbitrary statement to demand the vatican give more based on nothing substantial.
Saying that "the poor will always be with us," is not an answer.
willhud9 wrote:Thomas Eshuis wrote: The OP does not say sell of
all Vatican assets/wealth. And even if it did, that would still not be pointless.
Yeah it would.
Not really, people would still benefit from it.
People benefit from it now. On what objective measure do you qualify how much more people would benefit? And again how much? That is a major point and not at all a red herring as its not an attempt at misdirection. Fail fallacy use.
More people would benefit if more people could be educated without cost at their schools. If they built more schools than churches, if they went into Africa, for example, and took food, clothes, schools, and not religion.
willhud9 wrote:As it wouldn't have anything left to give.
That doesn't make it pointless, just a one-time deal.
I think Jesus said something along the lines of, Their will always be poor.
He didn't actually say that. The person who wrote the Gospel said that. Matthew 26:11
So because we accept that there will always be poor people, it doesn't mean that we should foster poverty by refusing to encourage people to use contraception.
It is a pointless gesture. They give it all away and things seem to get fixed and new problems arise and people demand more money. Cycle of life. Pointless.
That's not the point of charity. You don't just hand over money, you hand over the means for people to move out of poverty. If there were more people in "middle class" i.e. working at jobs, and providing jobs, and fewer people living in the sort of poverty you find in Catholic countries, the need for charity would diminish.
willhud9 wrote:But anyways, it gives a lot of it away.
Yea, you already said that. Doesn't make giving even more away pointless.
If it does not really solve anything major yes it is.
We've shown this in South Africa, every year that children graduate from our high schools and move on to tertiary education, the quality of their families' lives improve. I have a man who does my garden for me. He was born during Apartheid, in the 1960s. His father died when he was in high school, so he left school to support his mother and siblings, the only work he could do was gardening, so he became really good at it. His eldest daughter has just left high school with 5 As out of a potential 7. (Our school subjects are labelled under 7 main headings). She's going to university to study under a bursary granted by a corporation, and is guaranteed a job with them when she leaves there in four years. Thus in one generation, her family will move out of poverty. He has another daughter who is still at school, being encouraged to learn and follow in her sister's footsteps. See smaller family, better opportunities. And that's just one example.
willhud9 wrote:Again the demands made by the atheist are illogical and pointless.
What atheists?
And you haven't established this.
You've thrown in a red herring and some rather illogical arguments.
And apparently you didn't.
Aggie didn't make the demands. The atheist in the link did. And no wealth does not go against its preachings. Only hyper literalists and fundamentalists interpret it that way alone without actually giving the text some critical evaluation.
If I had any real influence, I would make the demands, unfortunately no one is interested in listening to what I have to say.
A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation. - Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 BCE - 43 BCE)