CofE "Could be extinct in 20 years"

RealityRules · **#41** by **RealityRules** » Jan 30, 2014 7:54 pm

Andrew Brown has stated he's an atheist, but he certainly seems to have a bias & special pleads for religion: it seems he wants to drag out his role as Religious [affairs] editor [Comment is Free; Belief] at the Guardian

Byron · **#42** by **Byron** » Jan 30, 2014 10:05 pm

He doesn't believe in a god, but isn't anti-religious. I can go with that. Atheism doesn't necessarily mean anti-theism.

RealityRules · **#43** by **RealityRules** » Jan 30, 2014 10:07 pm

Byron wrote:He doesn't believe in a god, but isn't anti-religious. I can go with that. Atheism doesn't necessarily mean anti-theism.

Sure.

quisquose · **#44** by **quisquose** » Jan 31, 2014 10:10 am

Penny starting to drop?

http://www.churchtimes.co.uk/articles/2 ... et-serious

Time to get serious

Linda Woodhead has undertaken a series of surveys into religion and public life. She argues that her research shows a Church that must face up to the reality, or die

I rather like the picture attached to the article, because it repeats the self delusion that Andrew Brown and others made in the R4 programme I linked to earlier. Any excuse except for the one they don't want to admit to, more and more people are simply calling "bullshit" on the God hypothesis.

Byron · **#45** by **Byron** » Feb 01, 2014 1:38 pm

I've no doubt that atheism is on the rise thanks to its recent popularization, but a bigger threat to organized religion may be the Mind, Body, Spirit crowd. Why bother signing up to dogma and bigotry when you can go syncretist, and take spirituality à la carte? Instead of submitting to a tradition, folk raid the good, & ignore the bad.

Charismatic evangelicalism (the Willow Creek/"HTB" crowd) appeals to a limited demographic (shallow, preppy young adults are particularly drawn) but its shallowness is its undoing, as plenty folk get frustrated with its glib, packaged answers and leave after a time.

Material prosperity is what enables things like Mind, Sport, Spirit. Market is king. Evangelicalism has enjoyed limited success by working consumerism, becoming the place to get your spiritual kick, but it's no coincidence that old school religion thrives among the downtrodden. If the Church of England moves into welfare provision, as it's attempting to do, it'll get really scary.

Will S · **#46** by **Will S** » Feb 07, 2014 10:25 am

What about the impact of clergy numbers on all this? I haven't been able to get complete statistics, but a little googling indicates that the number of full-time clergy has just about halved since the 1960s. The proportion of women clergy is approaching 20%, and about half of the newly ordained clergy are women.

This looks likes catastrophic decline, which would have been a lot worse if the C of E hadn't taken the decision to ordain women.

surreptitious57 · **#47** by **surreptitious57** » Feb 07, 2014 10:40 am

Clive Durdle wrote:
( Alpha ) is actually hardline wlc pentecostalism

They had an advertising campaign : Does God Exist ? Yes / No / Probably

The error may or may not be intentional but it is blindingly obvious nonetheless

I would love to sit in on one of their meets but atheists are probably not allowed ha ha ha

surreptitious57 · **#48** by **surreptitious57** » Feb 07, 2014 10:41 am

surreptitious57 wrote:
Clive Durdle wrote:
( Alpha ) is actually hardline wlc pentecostalism

They had an advertising campaign : Does God Exist ? Yes / No / Probably

The error may or may not be intentional but it is blindingly obvious nonetheless

I would love to sit in on one of their meets but atheists are probably not allowed ha ha ha

DougC · **#49** by **DougC** » Feb 07, 2014 12:53 pm

Byron · **#50** by **Byron** » Feb 08, 2014 10:05 am

Will S wrote:What about the impact of clergy numbers on all this? I haven't been able to get complete statistics, but a little googling indicates that the number of full-time clergy has just about halved since the 1960s. The proportion of women clergy is approaching 20%, and about half of the newly ordained clergy are women.

This looks likes catastrophic decline, which would have been a lot worse if the C of E hadn't taken the decision to ordain women.

Excellent point. You're bang on, the CofE is hemorrhaging clergy, can't get new recruits for full-time ministry, and relies on thousands of unpaid, part-time ministers. To add to its woes, it faces a horrendous pension bill.

All signs of a decaying institution, one that exists on goodwill and memory, both of which are fast running out.

Scot Dutchy · **#51** by **Scot Dutchy** » Feb 08, 2014 10:25 am

Byron wrote:
Will S wrote:What about the impact of clergy numbers on all this? I haven't been able to get complete statistics, but a little googling indicates that the number of full-time clergy has just about halved since the 1960s. The proportion of women clergy is approaching 20%, and about half of the newly ordained clergy are women.

This looks likes catastrophic decline, which would have been a lot worse if the C of E hadn't taken the decision to ordain women.

Excellent point. You're bang on, the CofE is hemorrhaging clergy, can't get new recruits for full-time ministry, and relies on thousands of unpaid, part-time ministers. To add to its woes, it faces a horrendous pension bill.

All signs of a decaying institution, one that exists on goodwill and memory, both of which are fast running out.

This is valid for all institutional churches in all European countries.

Regina · **#52** by **Regina** » Feb 08, 2014 12:05 pm

Scot Dutchy wrote:
Byron wrote:
Will S wrote:What about the impact of clergy numbers on all this? I haven't been able to get complete statistics, but a little googling indicates that the number of full-time clergy has just about halved since the 1960s. The proportion of women clergy is approaching 20%, and about half of the newly ordained clergy are women.

This looks likes catastrophic decline, which would have been a lot worse if the C of E hadn't taken the decision to ordain women.

Excellent point. You're bang on, the CofE is hemorrhaging clergy, can't get new recruits for full-time ministry, and relies on thousands of unpaid, part-time ministers. To add to its woes, it faces a horrendous pension bill.

All signs of a decaying institution, one that exists on goodwill and memory, both of which are fast running out.

This is valid for all institutional churches in all European countries.

Have you been to Poland recently? Or Russia, or Ukraine?

Will S · **#53** by **Will S** » Feb 08, 2014 12:30 pm

Byron wrote:To add to its woes, it faces a horrendous pension bill.

I recall from some work I did ages ago, it was a non-contributory pension scheme, and, though the funding arrangements appear to have changed, it still seems to be non-contributory.

It certainly looks like bad news.

CofE "Could be extinct in 20 years"

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