I ask this after a brief musing on several different theological topics such as John Loftus's Outsider Test of Faith and the question of whether Islam and Christianity worship the same God.

Now if an honest and reasonable believer in either of these religions carefully looks at the reasons why she/he believes in that religion, they will find exactly the same in the other - and yet both can not be true. See for example this from a senior Christian philosopher, Doug Groothuis at http://www.denverseminary.edu/become-a- ... -same-god/ .

What do we regularly get as "proof" of the veracity of Christianity :

1. arguments from cosmology - there has to be a designer, something from nothing, big bang and on and on : valid for and used by both religions ;

2. revealed holy scripture - including special prophets, special messages and revelation from "God";

3. special messengers - Jesus / Mohamed ;

4. vast bodies of philosophical / theological works "proving" these religions ;

5. personal experience and confirmation of these tenets by believers, from the beginning up to and including the present day, a type of personal verification system ;

6. allegedly unlikely beginnings and a flourishing of the religions throughout history, hence divine providence and support;

7. prayer is effective under certain circumstances, the chosen deity watches, monitors and records one's actions, and can have an influence on the world, including an afterlife with punishment / reward.

I can go on and on. Do these similarities not ring a bell in the mind of the true believer? Or put in another way : if my "special, divinely inspired, true" religion is so easily and so sincerely duplicated by another massively popular and historically resilient religion - are my conclusions really that valid?

I have read some of the various apologetics from these two religions, and it really just boils down to "Jesus makes the difference" or "The Quran says ..."

Just some more thoughts on why I just cannot understand the theistic mind.

Isn't this what many religions boil down to, lousy apologetics, claims of divine revelation (through messengers, visions, dreams, whatever, holy texts), personal experience, prophecy, etc. That seems to sum up the 'arguments' for religion.

What is the argument that Christianity and Islam don't worship the same God? The fact that they have some different beliefs doesn't lead to that conclusion - after all, so do Catholics and Baptists.

nunnington wrote:What is the argument that Christianity and Islam don't worship the same God? The fact that they have some different beliefs doesn't lead to that conclusion - after all, so do Catholics and Baptists.

Quite right.

Muslims worship only allah and his so-called prophet. Christians worship christ as their god and savior. The same Abrahamic god until the coming of the christ. The muslims believe christ was just a prophet, nothing more. And never the twain shall meet.

Agreed, the OP is spot-on. Similar to Dawkins' "we are all atheists about most of the world's religions, I just believe in one god less than you" position. Blazingly obvious to us; lost in the cognitive dissonance of the theist.

Invictus_88 wrote:

nunnington wrote:What is the argument that Christianity and Islam don't worship the same God? The fact that they have some different beliefs doesn't lead to that conclusion - after all, so do Catholics and Baptists.

Quite right.

Have a look at the Groothuis article I referred to in the OP. While there are some Christians who believe that it is the same product with a different name, a lot of them argue quite heavily against it being the same god. The Muslims are also quite vehement that the triune god cannot be their god. I agree with people like Groothuis who believe that their gods are different. If I was a theist I would also argue for different gods - it being the same one just causes too many difficulties.

They disagree about the nature of that god, but the god is the same. It is the god in the big book, the god of Abraham.

Invictus_88 wrote:They disagree about the nature of that god, but the god is the same. It is the god in the big book, the god of Abraham.

This is, it seems to me, a rather common misconception. As Groothuis says in the above article : "However, we must conclude that despite their common monotheism, Islam and Christianity have very different views of God, worship, and mission. Therefore, it is unreasonable to claim that they worship the same God. "

You will find the same approach amongst many of the current Christian thinkers and apologists.

In any event, my question remains equally valid even if, for the sake of argument we accept that they are perceived as the same god. How then does the believer in either camp reconcile the different revelations, the different prophets, the mutually exclusive claims, the views of Jesus / Mohamed etc? These are not small details that can or should be glossed over in some sort of ecumenical approach.

mindyourmind

'Through a glass darkly' summarizes it for me. That is, the same God can be refracted to different people in different ways. Since no-one knows what the nature of God is, we are all seeking God.

Sam Harris makes the point that Islam and Christianity are totally irreconcilable because Christians must believe in the divinity of Jesus while Muslims are damned to hell if they believe that.

http://www.samharris.org/site/full_text/sam-harris-why-we-should-ditch-religion-cnn/

The comment starts at about the 2:00 minute mark.

But many Sufis will tell you that everything is divine. Presumably, this includes Jesus, but it also includes you and me.

But even if Islam and Christianity have differences in their doctrine, I don't see why this means that they have a different God.

nunnington wrote:But many Sufis will tell you that everything is divine. Presumably, this includes Jesus, but it also includes you and me.

But even if Islam and Christianity have differences in their doctrine, I don't see why this means that they have a different God.

arn't you just trying to force them to be the same by eluding all the contradictions of their doctrine ?

IIzo

I don't see why, if we have different ideas about something, it means that the 'something' can't be the same. For all I know, a shaman in the Amazon is contacting the same divine force as I am. Why not?

nunnington wrote:IIzo

I don't see why, if we have different ideas about something, it means that the 'something' can't be the same. For all I know, a shaman in the Amazon is contacting the same divine force as I am. Why not?

With all respect, that is a very fluffy New Age approach to this, and unwittingly it does a disservice to these religions. That is NOT their doctrine, that is not their approach, so who are we to tell them differently? Essentially they believe that they are each serving the one true god, and the true fundamentalists will not accept that the god is the same.

And you are not really dealing with my question - even if we accept that the god is the same.

mindyourmind

You may say that, but I talk to a lot of Christians who do say, yes, of course we worship the same God. Of course, the fundagelicals do not. But then they don't think anyone else is a fucking Christian but them!

Which question? Am I forcing things together?

Fluffy - mmm. Nice. Yes, fluffy New Age Christian - at last I have found my true home. I just need to adjust that new dream-catcher on the wall.

nunnington wrote:mindyourmind

'Through a glass darkly' summarizes it for me. That is, the same God can be refracted to different people in different ways. Since no-one knows what the nature of God is, we are all seeking God.

My large.

What? All of us? Think again, and this time, dont speak for others, others you do not know.

nunnington wrote:mindyourmind

You may say that, but I talk to a lot of Christians who do say, yes, of course we worship the same God. Of course, the fundagelicals do not. But then they don't think anyone else is a fucking Christian but them!

Which question? Am I forcing things together?

Fluffy - mmm. Nice. Yes, fluffy New Age Christian - at last I have found my true home. I just need to adjust that new dream-catcher on the wall.

All that proves is that a lot of Christians are unaware of the doctrines they profess to believe in and base their faith on. The logical breakdown with this type of ignorance/new ageism is that they rely upon contradictory principles (both internally and externally contradictory) to justify their faith yet at the same time play down the importance of said principles when the contradictions make them uncomfortable. Essentially they like the faith when it makes them feel good but try to down play it when it makes them feel bad. I honestly prefer a good old fundamentalist over this type of intellectual laziness.

james1v wrote:

nunnington wrote:mindyourmind

'Through a glass darkly' summarizes it for me. That is, the same God can be refracted to different people in different ways. Since no-one knows what the nature of God is, we are all seeking God.

My large.

What? All of us? Think again, and this time, dont speak for others, others you do not know.

Oh for fuck's sake, take it in context: the 'we' refers to 'different people' in 'the same God can be refracted to different people in different ways'. Don't worry, I'm not impugning your atheist purity.

purplerat wrote:

nunnington wrote:mindyourmind

You may say that, but I talk to a lot of Christians who do say, yes, of course we worship the same God. Of course, the fundagelicals do not. But then they don't think anyone else is a fucking Christian but them!

Which question? Am I forcing things together?

Fluffy - mmm. Nice. Yes, fluffy New Age Christian - at last I have found my true home. I just need to adjust that new dream-catcher on the wall.

All that proves is that a lot of Christians are unaware of the doctrines they profess to believe in and base their faith on. The logical breakdown with this type of ignorance/new ageism is that they rely upon contradictory principles (both internally and externally contradictory) to justify their faith yet at the same time play down the importance of said principles when the contradictions make them uncomfortable. Essentially they like the faith when it makes them feel good but try to down play it when it makes them feel bad. I honestly prefer a good old fundamentalist over this type of intellectual laziness.

Ah well, anti-theists always love fundies. All that gorgeous literalism and pseudo-science. Mmm. Chew-toys anyone?