Historical Jesus

Abrahamic religion, you know, the one with the cross...

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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33341  Postby proudfootz » May 05, 2013 5:28 pm

angelo wrote:
dejuror wrote:
GakuseiDon wrote:
lpetrich wrote:
What does he base his argument on? The number of copies from the Middle Ages?

That's not a very good argument, since it says nothing about those documents' first few centuries.

Given recent history on threads on this board, it may be worth getting the actual quote from Ehrman first, to find out what he actually did say.


We have "Did Jesus Exist?" by Bart Ehrman.

Please examine page 180.

Ehrman would then contradict himself in the very same chapter at page 182 and 184 by admitting that the Gospels are riddled with accounts of Jesus that almost certainly did not happen.

And further, Ehrman would identify many accounts of the Jesus that were not historically correct.

Amazingly, Ehrman destroyed his own argument and proved that the Gospels are not well attested and in the very same chapter.

There can be no worse argument for HJ of Nazareth than Ehrman's in "Did Jesus Exist?"

This man's credibility has vanished completely for me after reading just a few chapters of this book. I'm of the opinion as I have stated elsewhere that Ehrman is out to win the Templeton Prize. He also announces in the book that he is agnostic, a fence sitter if ever there was one! :what:


If he gets Templeton money for his efforts that just proves he's a 'professional' - because the only scholars worth paying attention to are ones who get PAID!
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33342  Postby proudfootz » May 05, 2013 7:08 pm

While reviewing old links I happened on this review of Thomas Brodie's book - the one that lost him his academic job:

Beyond the Quest is a mixture of two things: autobiography and historical-theological analysis, all (except chp. 7) written in an accessible style—like having an extended cup of coffee (p. xv). Jesus mythicists may not be that interested in the autobiographical material, but I find it welcome, for the contemporary assaults on Christianity—from the Catholic Church’s sex scandals to the Vati-leaks to the inexorably mounting questions regarding the religion’s historical roots—inevitably represent personal challenges to those of faith. Brodie is uniquely well positioned to address the academic challenge of Jesus mythicism for, while he himself is a protagonist attacking the historicity of Jesus, he is also a distinguished man of faith...

The list of his publications in the Bibliography takes up two full pages and attest to Brodie’s longstanding commitment as a researcher into Christian origins. His skeptical views have generally been balanced by a faith which dispenses with the ‘letter’ in favor of the ‘spirit’ (Part 2 of this review). However, the explicitness of Brodie’s latest book goes well beyond the pale and, in this regard, stands outside the usual ambit of his oeuvre. Immediately after the book’s publication Brodie was (for the first time) forbidden to teach. The book has also caused considerable discussion in Jesus mythicist circles.

...

Father Thomas Brodie’s Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus offers the world a closely reasoned analysis showing that “Jesus of Nazareth” is a fiction, a literary construct cunningly based on Jewish scripture. Brodie has done nothing less than deconstruct normative Christianity based on literary source criticism. Of course, Thomas Brodie is no Johnny come lately, no dillettante, no wild-eyed hater of Christianity… He is both a Dominican priest and a distinguished bible scholar with an extensive resumé of published work going back many decades. Throughout his academic career, Brodie’s specialization has been literary source criticism. In this domain, he is the expert.

<full review starts at link below>

http://www.mythicistpapers.com/thomas-brodie-pt-1/


It looks like there's much more to this book than a simple 'memoir' of a scholar who must hide his true convictions but a thorough-going examination by a leading academic scholar of the literary development of 'scripture' both Old Testament and New from the stuff of theology and not history.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33343  Postby Corky » May 05, 2013 9:13 pm

Yep, and just let Bart Ehrman come out of the closet as a mythicist and he will be "forbidden to teach" just like Thomas Brodie was. It's an unwritten law amongst these biblical scholars that they don't deny Jesus Christ - anything but that is okay.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33344  Postby proudfootz » May 06, 2013 2:50 am

Corky wrote:Yep, and just let Bart Ehrman come out of the closet as a mythicist and he will be "forbidden to teach" just like Thomas Brodie was. It's an unwritten law amongst these biblical scholars that they don't deny Jesus Christ - anything but that is okay.


It's clear that Ehrman has imbibed a fear of 'mythicism' as he has stated no open 'mythicist' would ever get hired in his industry.

These views are so extreme and so unconvincing to 99.99 percent of the real experts that anyone holding them is as likely to get a teaching job in an established department of religion as a six-day creationist is likely to land on in a bona fide department of biology.


So if Ehrman should harbor 'mythicist' thoughts deep in his conscience, you can see why he'd be afraid to state them. He seems to believe he'd be instantly unemployable.

Hardly very intelligent of him to keep boasting "there is not a single mythicist who teaches New Testament or Early Christianity or even Classics at any accredited institution of higher learning in the Western world" when he supplies us the reason: 'no Irish or dogs mythicists allowed beyond this point'.
"Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't." - Mark Twain
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33345  Postby angelo » May 06, 2013 5:47 am

Ehrman like others of his persuasion certainly knows which side of the toast is the butter on.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33346  Postby angelo » May 06, 2013 6:25 am

"What do Greek and Roman sources have to say about jesus? Or to make the question more pointed: if Jesus lived and died in the first century [around 30CE for his death], what do Greek and Roman sources from his own day through the end of the century [say, the year 100] have to say about him?
The answer is breathtaking. They have absolutely nothing to say about him. He is never discussed, challenged, attacked, or maligned , or talked about in any way in any surviving pagan source of the period.
There atre no birth records, accounts of his trial and death, reflections on his significance, or disputes about his teachings. In fact, his name is never mentioned once in any pagan source. And we have a lot of Greek and Roman sources from the period: religious scholars, historians, philosophers, poets, natural scientists; we have thousands of private letters; we have inscriptions placed on buildings in public places. In no first century Greek or Roman source is Jesus mentioned."

The above sounds like the writings of a mythologist. In fact it's page 148 of Ehrman's book Jesus, Interrupted
After examining all the extra biblical sources and he comes to the conclusion that none of them including Josephus, Tacitus etc can be used to make a case for the HJ. That all we have to make a case for him are the discredited, forged gospels.
In this book as well as others like the volume Forged he makes a considerable case why the gospels are discredited, yet he uses these very sources to make his case for HJ. :what:
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33347  Postby Clive Durdle » May 06, 2013 6:27 am

Brodie demonstrates in detail that the New Testament texts are sophisticated works of fiction produced by a “school” primarily engaged in rewriting Old Testament scripture. He shows that Jesus is prefigured in Yahweh, Paul (whom he suggests is also a fictional figure) is prefigured in Moses, and that the Son of Man, the doctrine of atonement, and many other elements central to Christianity have direct Jewish models. Most importantly, he reveals that the biography of Jesus was essentially ‘pilfered’ from the Elijah-Elisha narrative. For all this, mythicists owe Brodie a good deal of appreciation.


http://www.mythicistpapers.com/thomas-brodie-pt-3/
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33348  Postby proudfootz » May 07, 2013 1:02 am

angelo wrote:"What do Greek and Roman sources have to say about jesus? Or to make the question more pointed: if Jesus lived and died in the first century [around 30CE for his death], what do Greek and Roman sources from his own day through the end of the century [say, the year 100] have to say about him?

The answer is breathtaking. They have absolutely nothing to say about him. He is never discussed, challenged, attacked, or maligned, or talked about in any way in any surviving pagan source of the period.

There are no birth records, accounts of his trial and death, reflections on his significance, or disputes about his teachings. In fact, his name is never mentioned once in any pagan source. And we have a lot of Greek and Roman sources from the period: religious scholars, historians, philosophers, poets, natural scientists; we have thousands of private letters; we have inscriptions placed on buildings in public places. In no first century Greek or Roman source is Jesus mentioned."

The above sounds like the writings of a mythologist. In fact it's page 148 of Ehrman's book Jesus, Interrupted.

After examining all the extra biblical sources and he comes to the conclusion that none of them including Josephus, Tacitus etc can be used to make a case for the HJ. That all we have to make a case for him are the discredited, forged gospels.

In this book as well as others like the volume Forged he makes a considerable case why the gospels are discredited, yet he uses these very sources to make his case for HJ. :what:


It rather reminds me of Descartes who uses radical doubt to undermine knowledge of anything except for his thoughts then turning around and building up a 'christian' worldview based on his notions of what god would be like.

Small wonder some thought Ehrman might be sympathetic to a 'mythical' origin for Jesus.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33349  Postby Epicure » May 09, 2013 1:19 am

I recently noticed a common theme after following some Vridar links about Rene Salm.

A sizable segment (NOT all) of the most rabid mythicist haters are lovers of things medieval. I'm not talking just pointing out that there was some progress during the Middle Ages, more than what is commonly thought, chainmail, V-shaped plow, crop rotation, etc. -- but they seem to constantly emphasize the Church and Religious intellectuals of the Dark and Middle Ages and try to knock more secular or humanist (whether Ancient or starting in the Renaissance Era) down more than a peg or two.

They also tend to have disdain for "Whig History".

I'm completely puzzled by why they have this perspective.

Edit: I just saw the Ehrman DJE thread, should have posted this there.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33350  Postby angelo » May 09, 2013 6:29 am

Post can just as well belong here as well as it's on topic Epicure.
But to add to this, methinks Ehrman has done irreparable damage to his credibility with his book DJE. I have a suspicion he will try to wriggle out of it in his next volume.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33351  Postby Stein » May 09, 2013 5:00 pm

angelo wrote:"What do Greek and Roman sources have to say about jesus? Or to make the question more pointed: if Jesus lived and died in the first century [around 30CE for his death], what do Greek and Roman sources from his own day through the end of the century [say, the year 100] have to say about him?
The answer is breathtaking. They have absolutely nothing to say about him. He is never discussed, challenged, attacked, or maligned , or talked about in any way in any surviving pagan source of the period.
There atre no birth records, accounts of his trial and death, reflections on his significance, or disputes about his teachings. In fact, his name is never mentioned once in any pagan source. And we have a lot of Greek and Roman sources from the period: religious scholars, historians, philosophers, poets, natural scientists; we have thousands of private letters; we have inscriptions placed on buildings in public places. In no first century Greek or Roman source is Jesus mentioned."

The above sounds like the writings of a mythologist. In fact it's page 148 of Ehrman's book Jesus, Interrupted
After examining all the extra biblical sources and he comes to the conclusion that none of them including Josephus, Tacitus etc can be used to make a case for the HJ. That all we have to make a case for him are the discredited, forged gospels.
In this book as well as others like the volume Forged he makes a considerable case why the gospels are discredited, yet he uses these very sources to make his case for HJ. :what:


Angelo --

How many more times are you going to repeat this nonsense about Ehrman and avoid directly addressing --

-- THIS?
http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post5 ... ted#p52353 (Mar 14, 2010 5:40 am)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post5 ... ed#p517691 (Oct 15, 2010 5:20 am)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post5 ... ed#p517858 (Oct 15, 2010 6:53 am)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post5 ... ed#p517962 (Oct 15, 2010 8:00 am)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post5 ... ed#p537647 (Oct 25, 2010 6:18 pm)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post5 ... ed#p540394 (Oct 26, 2010 9:46 pm)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post9 ... ed#p902052 (Jun 26, 2011 5:27 am)

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post9 ... ed#p902110 (Jun 26, 2011 6:17 am)

Please address these directly once and for all. It's insulting to the board to repeat an identical assertion again and again and again and again and again without directly addressing any of the points duly made in response. It's tantamount to being misleading on your part, once these on-point responses to you have been made so very many times. You have not once addressed and disposed of these many responses to you directly. It's past time that you man up and finally address them just as directly and thoroughly as these responders have you.

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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33352  Postby angelo » May 10, 2013 7:07 am

WTF, I thought Tim O was a figure of history. I also said other things 3 years ago, lets see you dig them up as well!
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33353  Postby RealityRules » May 10, 2013 7:34 am

Stein wrote:Please address these directly once and for all. It's insulting to the board to repeat an identical assertion again and again and again and again and again without directly addressing any of the points duly made in response. ...

Stein

Yes, please address these & other key issues, Stein; including "points duly made in response".
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33354  Postby angelo » May 10, 2013 7:41 am

RealityRules wrote:
Stein wrote:Please address these directly once and for all. It's insulting to the board to repeat an identical assertion again and again and again and again and again without directly addressing any of the points duly made in response. ...

Stein

Yes, please address these & other key issues, Stein; including "points duly made in response".

Very obvious he is a HJ and a Ehrman apologist to boot.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33355  Postby RealityRules » May 10, 2013 7:54 am

Yes, but Stein could still try to address the issues using objective methodology such as the Historic Method, rather than appealing to 'authority' (such as Ehrman, & more dubious 'authority' such as O'Neill - o.O)
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33356  Postby Stein » May 10, 2013 5:19 pm

angelo wrote:WTF, I thought Tim O was a figure of history. I also said other things 3 years ago, lets see you dig them up as well!


Angelo, you have never once addressed umpteen different postings from umpteen different posters showing that Ehrman's remarks on the non-scripturals apply only to specific details of the Jesus biography, not to the basic question of historicity at all. In fact, the non-scripturals are indeed relevant to historicity, and Ehrman never once says they aren't. It's not for historicity but only for specific biographical details where Ehrman claims the non-scripturals are -- "more or less" (Ehrman's words) -- not so useful. Those are the facts on what Ehrman says, and you are pointedly ignoring them, after years and years of posters constantly setting the record straight. Once and for all, Ehrman is addressing specific details of the Jesus biography, not basic historicity.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts" (Daniel Patrick Moynihan). Your "facts" on Ehrman are in total error, and there's not a dime's worth of difference between what you say here --

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post5 ... ted#p52297

-- versus what you say today over three years later(!) --

http://www.rationalskepticism.org/post1 ... l#p1702887

-- after several different posters have demonstrated to you the real facts on Ehrman's real point again and again. What are we to make of that? And there were even some identical exchanges years earlier on the old Dawkins board, so your pointedly ignoring Ehrman's real point, even after it's duly pointed out to you, goes back even further than three+ years. Once and for all, Ehrman is addressing specific details of the Jesus biography, not basic historicity at all.

For years here, you have confounded specific biographical details versus basic historicity by pointedly ignoring every single poster who's pointed out the difference. By just repeating this same nonsensical mantra of yours -- that Ehrman somehow claims that the non-scripturals are of no pertinence to basic historicity when Ehrman claims no such thing -- regardless of what anyone has written back to you for years, you are acting like a hit-and-run bot. It's as if no one at all has ever addressed you on this matter before. On the contrary, dozens have, and your year-in-year-out obfuscations on this are too frequent and blatant by now not to be deliberately provoking. That's what you are plainly doing with this repeated fable of yours about Ehrman. It's thoroughly inaccurate, and by now you plainly know that perfectly well, just as well as anyone else here.

I don't believe you are dumb enough to be unaware of just how inaccurate it is, particularly after such a steady drumbeat of posters pointing out the facts to you for nearly half a decade. Maybe, at first, it was an honest mistake. But it's obviously a deliberate provocation today, plus a deliberate obfuscation by now of what Ehrman really says, and I'm calling you on it.

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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33357  Postby RealityRules » May 10, 2013 8:39 pm

The facts are

* Ehrman has been very contradictory, and not addressed the facts that
* there are no primary sources from the first century that verify the gospel Jesus story;
* there is no "basic historicity"


therefore

there is no Jesus biography; no "specific biographical details", as Stein repeatedly says
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33358  Postby lpetrich » May 11, 2013 5:46 am

To bring up another issue related to the historicity of the Gospels, those documents have no shortage of implausibilities, like Matthew and Luke trying to have it both ways about Jesus Christ's paternity. Here's one of my favorites:
“What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” Pilate asked.

They all answered, “Crucify him!”

“Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.

But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”

When Pilate saw that he was getting nowhere, but that instead an uproar was starting, he took water and washed his hands in front of the crowd. “I am innocent of this man’s blood,” he said. “It is your responsibility!”

All the people answered, “His blood is on us and on our children!”

(Matthew 27:21-25, NIV)

That's a very odd thing for a lynch mob to say. If they were anything like better-documented lynchers and would-be lynchers, they would have considered their lynching completely legitimate.

The United States has had a long history of lynching in its southeastern states. Lynchers often took pictures of their handiwork, and politicians from those states defended lynching and filibustered anti-lynching laws.
We of the South have never recognized the right of the negro to govern white men, and we never will. We have never believed him to be the equal of the white man, and we will not submit to his gratifying his lust on our wives and daughters without lynching him.

From a contemporary news story about an anti-lynching bill in 1922, the filibustering senator claimed that the bill was partisan and sectional, and was for Northern Republicans getting the black vote. He also claimed that bad black people would interpret that bill as an excuse to do Very Bad Things, and that good black people do not need any more legal protection than what they now have.

Most recently, Muammar Khadafy was lynched by some Libyan militiamen. They showed no regret over it, and the main criticism they got from their colleagues was that they ought to have tried to keep him alive. One militia commander asked "Are we supposed to kiss his head?" His body was displayed for a few days, then buried in a secret location in the desert.

That leads to another implausibility in the Gospels. Joseph of Arimathea getting Jesus Christ buried in a tomb. That seems like VIP treatment rather than what might be appropriate for a troublemaker. Left out for the dogs and vultures would be more likely, or at most, burial in some commoner graveyard.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33359  Postby nunnington » May 11, 2013 8:40 am

Ipetrich

So are you saying that implausible details argue for the non-existence of Jesus? I thought that many ancient figures were liberally garlanded with implausible details.
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Re: Historical Jesus [strict moderation]

#33360  Postby lpetrich » May 11, 2013 1:29 pm

nunnington wrote:Ipetrich

So are you saying that implausible details argue for the non-existence of Jesus?

More like that the Gospels are poor sources for a historical Jesus Christ if there was one.
I thought that many ancient figures were liberally garlanded with implausible details.

Could you go into detail here?
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