I'm With Stupid wrote:Does it not also kinda disprove the argument that by refusing the play ball with the current tipping system, you're only screwing over the employees?

No, that would only be the case if the employers made up the difference in fact as well as in theory.

rplatell wrote:But why should the gratuity be almost double for a party of eight, compared with smaller groups? It's a percentage, right? The staff have done no more work than if they had served two parties of four, so why should they receive twice as much in tips just because they all happen to be sitting at the same table? I agree with the pastor - I would have objected too.

First off, I just want to say that tips included in the bill as a rule of the house is a bit of a load of shit, although I can see a reason to have them. I wouldn't say that a table of eight is the same as two four-tops, though, not at all. In the front of the house the big change is that instead of having two fours to serve, a good chunk of the section has to be shut down for...about a half hour before the reservation to make sure the table is available, and usually a server borrowed from another section to get drinks and food out. Inconvenient, but not terrible. In the kitchen, an eight is much more of a bastard than two fours. Here's the basic routine for anything from a single to a table of five. To coordinate a table of 1-5 and get it out of the kitchen in a reasonable time is dead simple, and rarely gets fucked up. When a table gets bigger(starting around eight, but usually ten or more), then it requires a few things different. First, you have to push the smaller tables up and over the large party, or else they're not going to get out in time. This pushes the food for the big-top back to the half hour mark usually. Second, with smaller tables a screw up by one of the kitchen staff is an easy fix usually, and can be done with no major delay. With a big party, that's re-planning the entire plating and service for the whole party, and if you're not in a position to fix it quickly can delay by ten minutes or more. Third, when it finally comes time to plate the food for the large table, you have a couple issues. Timing the plates so the entire party is served within a couple minutes, and trying to not lose control on all the smaller tables around the big-top, which is very easy to do.

Add on to that the fact that the kitchen usually gets, at the very least a portion of the large party tips, and bigger groups tend to get a little sketchy about the tip, unless everyone's paying individually, and there's a very good chance that for the majority of a shift a server could make not a single dollar.

Next, very, very few restaurants that add a gratuity to the check don't tell you about it. Most places only do it for larger parties, and it'll be mentioned at the time of reservation, or stated in the menu, so it's not a secret. Basically, when you get a party larger than ten people, it stops being a normal service, and generally is not just one server. It's a team effort.

Not to mention that depending how the restaurant runs its tip pool, it's very possible for a server to lose money out of their own pocket if, even for perfect service, they get a shit tip from a big party.

I still have nightmares about cooking for those fucking big groups. Fuck.

I don't really get tipping. Why do you tip a waiter but not the check-out dude in Tesco? Does one work harder than the other?
Do you tip your kid's teachers? that's an important service job isn't it?
Why are we compelled to pay extra for something that is included anyway?

I tip in restaurants, but not because I want to, I do it to keep the peace. I don't want to ruin anyone's evening by arguing over a few quid. It just seems to a baffling cultural relic, but one that isn't important enough to me to take a stand over.

I don't remember it mattering if it were a party of sixty or fifteen tables of four. When I was a cook, it just didn't matter that much. The limit to the amount of made to order meals was limited by my kitchen cooking capacity anyway. For example, there are only so many pairs of eggs that fit on the egg grill for breakfeasts. A bus load of people just aren't all going to get their over easy eggs at the same time.

I did like it that we did not get any tip kickbacks in the kitchen, actually. We got paid our wage, and that was the life we had chosen. There were plenty of times the wait staff made much more money than we did, too. So it is. They had to deal with the public, and I did not. My concerns were accuracy, quality, and speed.

I did like cooking. I was good at it. You know, it takes a remarkable amount of short term multi-tasking to do well. With practice, one can get pretty damned good at it.

trubble76 wrote:I don't really get tipping. Why do you tip a waiter but not the check-out dude in Tesco? Does one work harder than the other?
Do you tip your kid's teachers? that's an important service job isn't it?
Why are we compelled to pay extra for something that is included anyway?

\

Because, as Erin has pointed out above, it's not included anyway. Restaurants pay their servers a substandard wage, inadequate to the service being provided, with the expectation that tips will cover the gap. So if you don't tip, you've just refused to pay for a service that was provided. It's arbitrary and anachronistic and, it has been suggested above, it may be a means by which restaurants dodge taxes that other businesses are required to pay. Ideally, IMHO, servers would be paid a reasonable hourly wage, and the cost of this would be included in the price of the meal. The practice of levying an auto-gratuity is possibly a step in this direction.

We have no service charges here. What is on the menu is the price including VAT.

Never pay in cash I always use my debit card. Even on terraces you can pay with a debit card.

Same here. Who need cash?

Christ. May as well pay with chickens...

I'm With Stupid wrote:

Is there not a market in America for restaurants that write in huge letters outside their door "We actually pay our employees a fair wage, so you don't need to make up the difference" and then charge a little more for the food?

I've never seen that but grocery stores have started doing it. They provide carry-out service but ask you not to tip.

There used to be restaurants in some big cities where servers paid the management in order to work there. There were others where you bought your "station", meaning a group of tables, for an upfront fee and then gave the management a portion of your tips. I knew a guy who bought a station at a Michelin starred restaurant in NYC for $30,000 and then kicked 10% of his tips back to management. He worked there for 20 years or so, made a shitpot of money, moved to Florida and opened a greasy spoon (that's where I met him).

laklak wrote:There used to be restaurants in some big cities where servers paid the management in order to work there. There were others where you bought your "station", meaning a group of tables, for an upfront fee and then gave the management a portion of your tips. I knew a guy who bought a station at a Michelin starred restaurant in NYC for $30,000 and then kicked 10% of his tips back to management. He worked there for 20 years or so, made a shitpot of money, moved to Florida and opened a greasy spoon (that's where I met him).

Interesting business model. I could see that working at a Michelin starred place. It's probably not so feasible at the typical greasy spoon.

Same business model used in titty bars, the dancers pay to work there.

laklak wrote:Same business model used in titty bars, the dancers pay to work there.

Ah, I was wondering why it sounded familiar. So those restaurants are basically waiter pimps.

The waiter that got fired for exposing the story got an opinion piece in Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree ... needs-tips

Speaking as a university student who makes his living as a part-time waiter, barista and bartender, I am flabbergasted how anyone can, with a straight face, say that they don't tip on principle. Waiting staff are paid relatively poorly, compared to other - often much less stressful, demanding and skilled - jobs across the globe, although it's certainly not as bad over here as it is over in the US. That thing with taxes on tips being deduced from the wage is an outrage, though. How do you people even have waiters? Why aren't they poisoning every single meal they serve?

I live off my tips. They are what pay for my food, course books and some commodities. The actual wage I need for rent and other fixed expenditures and - what an outrage! - I like to save some money up in case I need it. EVERYONE in the industry does it that way. So, every time you think you're being smart and skimp on the tip, you actively deprive me and my colleagues of money we have worked fucking hard to earn. As the Guardian piece tells you, it really is a hard and largely thankless job, although fun in it's own way.
Of course, I fully understand people not giving tips to absolutely abysmal waiters. If they are an asshole, you can be one too. I've done it myself, once or twice.

Obviously pretty much everyone in the industry would prefer an actually fair fixed wage to of being dependent on tips. I think that goes without saying. Make no mistake, though: We do depend on those couple of bucks you leave on the table for us and - personally - it's nice to have your hard work appreciated.

ETA: To add to that: If I know you on a personal level and not in my capacity as a waiter and I catch you skimping on tips for good or even adequate service, I WILL think less of you as a person.

Waiters in the UK are paid roughly the same as people working in a supermarket, behind a bar, at McDonalds, at a newsagents, or any number of other jobs that students rely on to make money. They're not paid less than these jobs and expected to make up the difference out of their salary, hence the argument that they need their tips to survive doesn't apply in the UK. And that's why I don't tip automatically. Which isn't to say I don't tip. I wouldn't tip someone for bringing me a bit of cake and a cup of tea in a cafe though.

And why do you have a problem with taxes being deducted from tips? Is it not part of your income? If so, why shouldn't you pay income tax on it like anyone else? It seems like you want the best of both worlds. You argue that it's an expected part of your fee for doing a job, but then want it taxed in a way that suggests it's actually a gift.

The only things I refuse to tip for are things that I didn't ask to be done and could easily do myself. There's nothing more annoying than dragging a big suitcase to a taxi, dragging it through the airport, dragging it onto the weighing scales, dragging it off the conveyor belt, dragging it into another taxi, dragging it out of the taxi, dragging it to reception, only for someone to take it off you for the final 10 feet to the lift and another 3 feet to your room and stand there expecting a tip for it. Get a proper job ffs. Same goes for the man who hands you a towel to dry your hands in the toilet. It's a service I neither needed or asked for.

Back when I was waiting tables the IRS required management to report all your credit card tips to them, or 8% of your total sales, whichever was higher. Then they taxed you on that amount. That's why I try to always tip in cash, servers have it tough enough without getting socked for more taxes.

I'm With Stupid wrote:Waiters in the UK are paid roughly the same as people working in a supermarket, behind a bar, at McDonalds, at a newsagents, or any number of other jobs that students rely on to make money. They're not paid less than these jobs and expected to make up the difference out of their salary, hence the argument that they need their tips to survive doesn't apply in the UK.

Well, a proper waiter/barkeep/barista/cook, etc. is a way more highly skilled worker than someone stacking shelves in a supermarket or working at McDonald's. Having worked, or working in several of the jobs mentioned, I can tell you that. So yes, more skilled work deserves more money. Of course, as I said, the obvious and preferable solution would be a matching fixed wage in any case, but since that isn't going to happen, I say it's a deserved extra.

I'm With Stupid wrote:And that's why I don't tip automatically. Which isn't to say I don't tip. I wouldn't tip someone for bringing me a bit of cake and a cup of tea in a cafe though.

I would. Heck, the only reason I don't tip at McDonald's is because I know for a fact that the employees aren't allowed (allowed, mind you) to keep the money, but instead have to hand it off or drop it in a charity box.

I'm With Stupid wrote:And why do you have a problem with taxes being deducted from tips? Is it not part of your income? If so, why shouldn't you pay income tax on it like anyone else? It seems like you want the best of both worlds. You argue that it's an expected part of your fee for doing a job, but then want it taxed in a way that suggests it's actually a gift.

I didn't say it was an expected part of my fee. I said it was necessary. In my case, necessary for me not to look at an empty wallet and bank account in the red come the end of the month. People not tipping comes as no surprise to me. I still think they're cheap assholes, as long as the service rendered was good, though. I actually do treat tips like a gift, because that is what they are. I am happy and grateful for getting them and I certainly don't expect to get them no matter what. Doesn't change the fact that that money is going to make the difference between just getting by and not having to worry if I can afford that coursebook I need or that beer with my mate I want.
Also, I actually do pay taxes on my tips. Not the whole amount, mind, just on a set amount that is the same for everyone working in the industry and is decided upon by the lawmaker. I won't pretend that I don't make way more tips than I pay taxes for, but that wasn't my point. It actually really is meant to be a gift in appreciation of work well done.

What is a fucking outrage is that the US system that was described in the article taxes such a ridiculous amount that apparently nothing of the actual wage is left and waiters there actually do entirely live off tips, which just breeds unpleasant situations as the one described in the OP. An automatic tip because the employers are cheap fucks is a twisted perversity. This is in fact so outrageous that words like "serfdom" come to mind.

I'm With Stupid wrote:The only things I refuse to tip for are things that I didn't ask to be done and could easily do myself. There's nothing more annoying than dragging a big suitcase to a taxi, dragging it through the airport, dragging it onto the weighing scales, dragging it off the conveyor belt, dragging it into another taxi, dragging it out of the taxi, dragging it to reception, only for someone to take it off you for the final 10 feet to the lift and another 3 feet to your room and stand there expecting a tip for it. Get a proper job ffs. Same goes for the man who hands you a towel to dry your hands in the toilet. It's a service I neither needed or asked for.

That is absolutely true. I don't tip for services not asked for or wanted and I don't expect to be tipped for them either. In fact, I don't perform them anyway. It's intrusive and borders on extortion. In gastronomy over here it also isn't the norm. Can't really speak for the other lines of work you mentioned.


Now, to finish this off, I acknowledge that there are huge differences in culture where the ideas of tipping, what constitutes good service, etc. are concerned and having worked in this industry only in Austria and Germany, I can't vouch for anything outside of the scope of my experiences.
This all makes me sound like a money-grubbing ass who puts on a fake plastic personality garnished with even faker servility to get into your wallet. That is not the case, however. I enjoy my job. I like having fun with my colleagues and costumers, I like delivering impeccable service and an enjoyable experience for everyone involved, including myself. In general, I like being good at what I do. I also like getting appreciated and paid for this. This sort of environment fosters good work ethic, which fosters good service, which fosters happy costumers, which fosters more moneyz and happyz for me. Win-win, I'd say. By being a dick, being cheap or being both, you make it harder for everyone involved.

kiore wrote:I dislike the idea of added charges whether they be taxes added after the price or service charges, I would prefer if the thing says it is say $10 then that is what you pay. I also agree that using compulsory tips to make up for inadequate salaries is also a bad thing generally. However in different places people do things differently so as long as you are informed that this is what will occur then you should comply with the local custom no matter how annoying, the reality is that the person you 'punish' by not paying the charge will be the person least able to afford the loss of income. Where it is clearly indicated then it is part of the price and the supposed pastor was therefore stealing, which his or her decimal tax deducting god also disapproves of.

I used to live in a country that added everything before hand, so $10.02 was $10.02. I had to get used to taxes being added afterwards and tips. I'm okay with tips, but I wish it was actually a bonus and not part of their wages.

Varangian wrote:Tipping/gratuity as the main source of income for serving staff should be done away with anyway. Give them a decent wage instead.

Not going to happen in the USA. Restaurants depend on the decades-old, culturally-ingrained "custom" of letting their customers pay their waiters' salaries. It's not like there's some "waiters union" that can go on strike if they don't get a decent wage.

Blood wrote:

Varangian wrote:Tipping/gratuity as the main source of income for serving staff should be done away with anyway. Give them a decent wage instead.

Not going to happen in the USA. Restaurants depend on the decades-old, culturally-ingrained "custom" of letting their customers pay their waiters' salaries. It's not like there's some "waiters union" that can go on strike if they don't get a decent wage.

That is depressing.