Is it not just a simple and effective logo for their business? Like the Nike swoosh or the Apple er er apple?

Maybe the ancient goat herders were actually secret marketing executives.

You might be on to something. It wouldn't be the first time a group has adopted a negative symbol in order to turn it into their own.

The Christian cross is a great bit of branding: though the trademark enforcement is crap.

The original likely wasn't a cross anyway, it was more likely a 'T'. Why waste the wood above the post? To give support to the poor victim's tired neck? The middle east has never, in historical times, been densely forested so wood would be at a premium. Much simpler to plant a post, put a beam on top and call it someone's nightmare. Also cheaper to build (ask a carpenter).

Likely, for much the same reasons, the feet of the victim were within inches of the ground, too, it's not like they could run away. Wouldn't want to exalt those enemies of the state by lifting them up to look at you know.

Sounds reasonable. And I suspect that all the 'crosses' were re-cycled - with wood that scarce that would be most likely.
After all, wood, was the only fuel for cooking. Can't use it all up for crosses, now, could we - Pilate might not get his dinner cooked.
So most likely Jesus was nailed-up on a second-hand 'cross'. I can visualise it now: "You're next. What's your name? Jesus? Pick a cross from that pile over there - no, no, not that one, it's in for repair. Try that one, there are not many blood-staines or nail-holes - looks as good as new..."

What would a backwater town preacher, likely a Jim Jones type (given the profile of cult leaders), a frothy, bat-shit crazy proponent of the apocalypse, probably quite abusive of his power, possibly a sexual deviant, even child molester (as they tend to be, even Gandhi), think if he was somehow transported through time to now (he certainly isn't coming back) say if he saw people worship his death cult with symbols of execution? He'd probably be perversely delighted, the freak.

Gandhi? A child molester? Do you have source for that?

I think it was on Penn and Teller's Bullshit (on the episode Holier Than Thou) I saw it. He used to sleep with the female children/adolescents naked as a "test of faith"or some bollox. He also personally administered suppositories to them for some dubious reason I can't recall. .

The third example is a more modern holy man, Mahatma Gandhi.  Gandhi was married at age 13 to a girl about his own age and at age 37 took a vow of sexual abstinence.  In spite of this vow, he found a need to fondle prepubescent and early adolescent girls.  He took such girls to bed with him to overcome, he said, his "shivering fits" in the night.  His female companions, who came from his inner circle — all certified virgins or young brides — entered his bed naked in order to warm him with their bodies.  Some of them also administered enemas to him.  Among the young girls, there was rivalry as to who would sleep with him, and one of his girl disciples reported that his bed companions had a difficult time in restraining their sexual impulses since he often rubbed against them and touched them in erotic places.

cont. http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume8/j8_2_1.htm

Coo! Didn't know that. So, 'Testing one's faith' is a euphemism for prepubescent fondling... Or some other sexual activity.

If one had NO doubts about one's faith, there would be no need to 'test' it.

Animavore wrote:

The third example is a more modern holy man, Mahatma Gandhi.  Gandhi was married at age 13 to a girl about his own age and at age 37 took a vow of sexual abstinence.  In spite of this vow, he found a need to fondle prepubescent and early adolescent girls.  He took such girls to bed with him to overcome, he said, his "shivering fits" in the night.  His female companions, who came from his inner circle — all certified virgins or young brides — entered his bed naked in order to warm him with their bodies.  Some of them also administered enemas to him.  Among the young girls, there was rivalry as to who would sleep with him, and one of his girl disciples reported that his bed companions had a difficult time in restraining their sexual impulses since he often rubbed against them and touched them in erotic places.

cont. http://www.ipt-forensics.com/journal/volume8/j8_2_1.htm

I think that deserves a thread of its own. Not that it wasn't unknown while he lived. Hmm... now all his talk about "non-violent resistance" comes in a new light...

Onyx8 wrote:The original likely wasn't a cross anyway, it was more likely a 'T'. Why waste the wood above the post? To give support to the poor victim's tired neck? The middle east has never, in historical times, been densely forested so wood would be at a premium. Much simpler to plant a post, put a beam on top and call it someone's nightmare. Also cheaper to build (ask a carpenter).

Likely, for much the same reasons, the feet of the victim were within inches of the ground, too, it's not like they could run away. Wouldn't want to exalt those enemies of the state by lifting them up to look at you know.

The bible actually never mentions the shape of the cross. All we know from the Bible was that a sign was hung over Jesus' head that read "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews"

This was an issue heavily contested among the church father's, however. For example, Martin Luther did not mind the crucifix (the cross with Jesus on it) or a naked cross. John Calvin, on the other hand, viewed it as idolatrous and disgraceful. So it's a matter of interpretation.

Alan B wrote:Gandhi? A child molester? Do you have source for that?

Do you have a source for the story you VISUALIZED about second-hand crosses?

My mum's an atheist, albeit a very wishy-washy one, but wears quite a large diamond encrusted gold cross. She's quite blingy my mum

Anyway, two of her little granddaughter's names begin with 'T', so they've decided it's actually a 't' because nana loves them so much she wears their initial. I'll go with that . Oh my wonderful heathen babies

Do you have a source for the story you VISUALIZED about second-hand crosses?

Of course I have. It's an extension of that well known Monty Python documentary... Now let me think, what was it's name?
'Life of something or other...'

Jewelry or any other man-made object that depicts the image of God is a Sin. It's in the laws and clearly stated in the Bible. And apparently the majority can't read. There is also a huge misconception that Jesus died and gave us all a free tocket to Heaven. If you truly believe that, there is a good chance you will be in the oven someday. He stated that the old laws are to continue to be followed and he even added to them! The Old Testament laws were put in place for a purpose. Jesus never changed the nature of God's creation - Man. We are to still adhere to the old laws in order to reach a point spiritually that is acceptable to God. I see Christians everywhere indulging in holidays, paganism, birthdays, etc etc etc. They don't realize what they are doing. And I hope God will forgive them for it.

So asking the question about wearing jewelry is one thing. But its only one of many that should be asked. The first one should be "What have I sacrificed for God?" Jesus sacrificed his life, and he commanded us to follow him. He didn't commit suicide. He got persecuted for standing by God 100%. To follow him means we must sacrifice everything in life that doesn't fall within the basic necessities to live, and be fruitful in a way that serves God. This takes very little as far as "nice things". America is a Pagan culture and the churches are Pagan churches. The people in them are following pagan beliefs. December is around the corner, and all of them will be celebrating the birth if Jesus. They won't be celebrating his death, which was the whole significance here. They celebrate the birth of a baby that wasn't King until he died. Its an evil pagan trick to get people to fall into the act of birthdays, which are nothing more than a way of exalting ourselves.

So what would Jesus say?

You should ask yourself that right before you take a single step each day. Before you turn on the TV, ask yourself, would Jesus approve of the TV? He would have crushed such a tool of evil. The same goes for radio, video games, newspapers, and music (acting). The only acceptable form of music is singing without instruments. Its a direct form of worship because it comes from the God given instrument. To train your voice to be better than others is to convert a Godly instrument into a Pagan one.

I seriously hope this discussion will wake up at least one person to knowing AND following God as it is written in the KJV Bible.

jjm859 wrote:

You should ask yourself that right before you take a single step each day. Before you turn on the TV, ask yourself, would Jesus approve of the TV? He would have crushed such a tool of evil. The same goes for radio, video games, newspapers, and music (acting). The only acceptable form of music is singing without instruments. Its a direct form of worship because it comes from the God given instrument. To train your voice to be better than others is to convert a Godly instrument into a Pagan one.

I seriously hope this discussion will wake up at least one person to knowing AND following God as it is written in the KJV Bible.

Jeeeez, you know how to have fun.

My bold: Why doesn't god crush everyone's TVs then? If he/she's so clever

jjm859 wrote: The first one should be "What have I sacrificed for God?" Jesus sacrificed his life, and he commanded us to follow him. He didn't commit suicide. He got persecuted for standing by God 100%.

A little confused here. I thought Jesus was God/part of the trinity thing. So he sacrificed himself to himself. But God is all knowing, so Jesus sacrificed himself to himself, knowing he was going to come back to life a few days later and save us all from sin. Bit of a drama queen your Jesus isn't he? Couldn't Jesus/God/Holy Ghost (what does he do anyway) just forgive man their sins without this really gratuitous, self gratifying pantomime?

I mean, a good demonstration of God's powers would have been maybe when they tried to nail him up, the nails just bounced off his hands or melted or something like that. Or, that they nailed him to the cross and then the cross took off and he barrel rolled around the sky like a WWII Spitfire, shooting nails at the romans. A few more people might have taken notice then.

Sorry, forgot the point. Yes, and then a crucifix would be a a symbol of power, of like "you'd better watch out for my God because this isn't the method of his tortured death, whist preparing for a glorious zombie return but it's a symbol of his kick ass power so watch the fuck out, I'm in de club!!"

monkeyboy wrote:

jjm859 wrote: The first one should be "What have I sacrificed for God?" Jesus sacrificed his life, and he commanded us to follow him. He didn't commit suicide. He got persecuted for standing by God 100%.

A little confused here. I thought Jesus was God/part of the trinity thing. So he sacrificed himself to himself. But God is all knowing, so Jesus sacrificed himself to himself, knowing he was going to come back to life a few days later and save us all from sin. Bit of a drama queen your Jesus isn't he? Couldn't Jesus/God/Holy Ghost (what does he do anyway) just forgive man their sins without this really gratuitous, self gratifying pantomime?

I mean, a good demonstration of God's powers would have been maybe when they tried to nail him up, the nails just bounced off his hands or melted or something like that. Or, that they nailed him to the cross and then the cross took off and he barrel rolled around the sky like a WWII Spitfire, shooting nails at the romans. A few more people might have taken notice then.

Sorry, forgot the point. Yes, and then a crucifix would be a a symbol of power, of like "you'd better watch out for my God because this isn't the method of his tortured death, whist preparing for a glorious zombie return but it's a symbol of his kick ass power so watch the fuck out, I'm in de club!!"

Cos Jesus is meek and mild, d'uh. Now god, he's a different kettle of fishes and loaves, he baaad, smiting is his business