Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#21  Postby HughMcB » Aug 25, 2010 2:51 pm

stevebee92653 wrote:The difference between you and me is I know I don't know. You haven't figured that out yet.

[Speaking for myself] The difference between you and me is not that you don't know but I claim I do (because I simply don't know either), but it's that you "believe" in unsupported anecdotes of some thousand year old goat herders and simply I don't, I reject such a belief based on lack of evidence.

I don't have any requirements or need to claim any additional beliefs in order to reject yours. This is where you seem to be mistaken.
"So we're just done with phrasing?"
User avatar
HughMcB
RS Donator
 
Posts: 19113
Age: 39
Male

Country: Canada
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#22  Postby stevebee92653 » Aug 25, 2010 4:35 pm

HughMcB wrote:
stevebee92653 wrote:The difference between you and me is I know I don't know. You haven't figured that out yet.

[Speaking for myself] The difference between you and me is not that you don't know but I claim I do (because I simply don't know either), but it's that you "believe" in unsupported anecdotes of some thousand year old goat herders and simply I don't, I reject such a belief based on lack of evidence.

I don't have any requirements or need to claim any additional beliefs in order to reject yours. This is where you seem to be mistaken.


Oh? Goat herders? I thought you evos were so big on not using strawman arguments. Why do you find the need to use them so consistently and bitch so sensitively when you think they are used against you? I hold no "beliefs" on this subject other than my own observations. And those observations show me that NS and RM could not have invented and assembled nature. Your belief is that a 19th century "scientist" figured it out, which is no better than believing in those corny goat herders you guys constantly utilize to defer scrutiny of your own beliefs. Darwin didn't know, scientists don't know, the "goat herders" didn't, no religious book does, no science book or vid does, you don't know, and either do I. We are all EXACTLY equal. As I said, you just don't realize it.
User avatar
stevebee92653
Banned Troll
 
Name: Steve
Posts: 1324

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#23  Postby hackenslash » Aug 25, 2010 4:43 pm

Are you still here? I thought you left...
hackenslash
 
Name: The Other Sweary One
Posts: 22910
Age: 54
Male

Country: Republic of Mancunia
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#24  Postby DaveD » Aug 25, 2010 4:44 pm

Shaker must have dragged him back.
Image
User avatar
DaveD
 
Name: Dave Davis
Posts: 3028
Age: 66
Male

Country: UK
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#25  Postby Shrunk » Aug 25, 2010 4:46 pm

stevebee92653 wrote:No CAD, I am pretty obviously saying that no human who ever lived, including you, me every evo, every YEC, every person isn't yet intelligent enough to solve the Puzzle. Not condescending, not a strawman. Just realism. The difference between you and me is I know I don't know. You haven't figured that out yet.


Perhaps some day, though, we will figure out where chihuahuas come from.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 59
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#26  Postby HughMcB » Aug 25, 2010 5:28 pm

stevebee92653 wrote:
HughMcB wrote:
stevebee92653 wrote:The difference between you and me is I know I don't know. You haven't figured that out yet.

[Speaking for myself] The difference between you and me is not that you don't know but I claim I do (because I simply don't know either), but it's that you "believe" in unsupported anecdotes of some thousand year old goat herders and simply I don't, I reject such a belief based on lack of evidence.

I don't have any requirements or need to claim any additional beliefs in order to reject yours. This is where you seem to be mistaken.


Oh? Goat herders? I thought you evos were so big on not using strawman arguments. Why do you find the need to use them so consistently and bitch so sensitively when you think they are used against you?

Would it make you feel better if I said fishermen? How about vagabonds?

stevebee92653 wrote:I hold no "beliefs" on this subject other than my own observations.

Which is in and of itself a "belief", no? :scratch:

stevebee92653 wrote:And those observations show me that NS and RM could not have invented and assembled nature.

NS and RM can't "invent" anything, that implies intent where none exists.

stevebee92653 wrote:Your belief is that a 19th century "scientist" figured it out, which is no better than believing in those corny goat herders you guys constantly utilize to defer scrutiny of your own beliefs.

My "belief" is that a nineteenth century scientist postulated and provided evidence for a [falsifiable] scientific theory to which a mountain of evidence has been subsequently found, with no evidence to the contrary. So much evidence in support in fact that even if Darwin's THEORY of evolution proves to be incorrect [i.e. NS], it is a FACT that animals do [and have] evolved.

stevebee92653 wrote:Darwin didn't know, scientists don't know, the "goat herders" didn't, no religious book does, no science book or vid does, you don't know, and either do I. We are all EXACTLY equal. As I said, you just don't realize it.

I'm perfectly fine with the premise that we are all on equal footing as far as our ability to "know" is concerned. However I'm interested to find out how the facts in the animal world you "know" in your youtube video, which contradict evolution.

Remember my question... care to answer?

HughMcB wrote:I would love if Mr. Bee could login and back up his claim in #7;
"You reject facts of nature that go against evolution"

Could he highlight some of these for us? :think:

If you don't answer or give a non-answer I will be forced to conclude that you are talking out your arse, in which case I would humbly request you remove your anal leakage video from youtube.

Thanks! :cheers:
"So we're just done with phrasing?"
User avatar
HughMcB
RS Donator
 
Posts: 19113
Age: 39
Male

Country: Canada
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#27  Postby mark1961 » Aug 25, 2010 6:04 pm

stevebee92653 wrote:

Oh? Goat herders? I thought you evos were so big on not using strawman arguments. Why do you find the need to use them so consistently and bitch so sensitively when you think they are used against you? I hold no "beliefs" on this subject other than my own observations. And those observations show me that NS and RM could not have invented and assembled nature. Your belief is that a 19th century "scientist" figured it out, which is no better than believing in those corny goat herders you guys constantly utilize to defer scrutiny of your own beliefs. Darwin didn't know, scientists don't know, the "goat herders" didn't, no religious book does, no science book or vid does, you don't know, and either do I. We are all EXACTLY equal. As I said, you just don't realize it.


Not strawman it's a possible "poisoning of the well" argument. Which is a subtype of ad-homenim. Not an attack on my part just trying to help. I would further advise reading one of the many online guides to spotting fallacies.

Addressing your comment in general Darwin did know a lot more about the workings of world than the various authors of The Bible. Which is putting it mildly. Like for instance being absolutely sure it's a planet.
User avatar
mark1961
 
Posts: 957
Age: 62
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#28  Postby Bolero » Aug 25, 2010 10:59 pm

CADman2300 wrote:
stevebee92653 wrote:
No CAD, I am pretty obviously saying that no human who ever lived, including you, me every evo, every YEC, every person isn't yet intelligent enough to solve the Puzzle. Not condescending, not a strawman. Just realism. The difference between you and me is I know I don't know. You haven't figured that out yet.

:what:
Here's a fun little saying that goes really well with this: It's better to be silent and believed a fool than to open one's mouth an remove all doubt.

Insisting that we as a people are not yet smart enough to know the answer and should just give up is not only condescending, it's also flat-out lazy, dishonest, and counter-productive. It advances our understanding of nothing, resolves nothing, proves nothing, and goes against the very founding principles of science. Does Stevie ever stop to wonder why theories are constantly being refined and improved upon, including Evolution? Science is an on-going process and he constantly refuses to accept this reality.


:clap: (My bold)
"You live with apes, man: it's hard to be clean." Marilyn Manson
User avatar
Bolero
 
Posts: 1534
Age: 45
Female

Country: Australia
Australia (au)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#29  Postby stevebee92653 » Aug 26, 2010 6:17 am

HughMcB: What are the notions of goat herders that you think I follow? I can't wait to hear.
Answer to your question: Fact: No person has ever observed mutations in a multi-cellular species initiating, forming, shaping healthy utilitarian tissues, and placing those tissues in just the correct position in the body of the host so that the host will better survive. I am sure you will come up with something, like peppered moths or such. But the fact is a fact that you will ignore and filter out so your belief system will survive. There are "mountains"more.
Shrunk: Chihuahua's AGAIN! What happened to you?
Mark1961: Bible? What does the Bible have to do with anything? "If stevebee isn't A, then he is B.' Right?" Your answer shows horrible logic.
Bolero: Did I suggest we "give up"? If so, where is the quote. I suggest we "give up" selected mutations as the source of all of nature. With that blocking good science, we will NEVER find out. Your comment shows the same logic as Mark1961

You guys are sure not good debunkers. But is sure is fun watching you try.
User avatar
stevebee92653
Banned Troll
 
Name: Steve
Posts: 1324

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#30  Postby natselrox » Aug 26, 2010 6:23 am

It does indeed walk and quack like a creationist.
When in perplexity, read on.

"A system that values obedience over curiosity isn’t education and it definitely isn’t science"
User avatar
natselrox
 
Posts: 10037
Age: 112
Male

India (in)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#31  Postby Weaver » Aug 26, 2010 6:30 am

stevebee92653 wrote:Fact: No person has ever observed mutations in a multi-cellular species initiating, forming, shaping healthy utilitarian tissues, and placing those tissues in just the correct position in the body of the host so that the host will better survive.
Strawman much?

You are correct - nobody has ever observed such an in situ adaptative development of entire tissues/organelles.

So what? Nobody (other than uneducated, denialist or delusional creationists) ever suggested that ever happened, or would happen, or could happen. This simply isn't part of evolutionary theory (any version of it).

So, are there any VALID facts of nature which go against evolution?
Image
Retired AiF

Cogito, Ergo Armatus Sum.
User avatar
Weaver
RS Donator
 
Posts: 20125
Age: 55
Male

Country: USA
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#32  Postby GenesForLife » Aug 26, 2010 8:59 am

Answer to your question: Fact: No person has ever observed mutations in a multi-cellular species initiating, forming, shaping healthy utilitarian tissues, and placing those tissues in just the correct position in the body of the host so that the host will better survive.


Massive fail, firstly, make sure you understand genetics and the heritability of phenotypes, including organs first, for new phenotypes to be inherited and fixed in the population, the underlying genotype, either the genes itself or their expression patterns, has to change.

Secondly, mutations alone do bugger all, there may be a variety of organ configurations that are suboptimal, and as long as they aren't deleterious (and thus are selected against) they can persist either by drift alone (if neutral) or positive selection.

Thirdly, just to bitchslap your stupid assertion I'm going to bring up a PNAS paper documenting, among other things, differential selection pressure leading to large scale divergence, and the evolution of new digestive organs
to complement the different selection pressure acting on a subpopulation of Podarcis sicula

The paper in question is

Rapid large-scale evolutionary divergence in morphology and performance associated with
exploitation of a different dietary resource.

http://www.pnas.org/content/105/12/4792.full.pdf+html

Abstract:

Although rapid adaptive changes in morphology on ecological time scales are now well documented in natural populations, the effects of such changes on whole-organism performance capacity and the consequences on ecological dynamics at the population level are often unclear. Here we show how lizards have rapidly evolved differences in head morphology, bite strength, and digestive tract structure after experimental introduction into a novel environment. Despite the short time scale (≈36 years) since this introduction, these changes in morphology and performance parallel those typically documented among species and even families of lizards in both the type and extent of their specialization. Moreover, these changes have occurred side-by-side with dramatic changes in population density and social structure, providing a compelling example of how the invasion of a novel habitat can evolutionarily drive multiple aspects of the phenotype.


The significance of the bolded statement is that the experimentally introduced subpopulation of Podarcis sicula underwent morpophenotypic change due to differential selection pressures in combination with natural variation and mutation (both of which are definites given the nature of reproduction (meiotic recombination) and the imperfect nature of DNA copying) that included features only seen in previously distantly related taxonimic families, the important thing that must be kept in mind is that phenotypic changes demand genotypic changes (which is also why the only way to get an exact phenotypic match is a somatic cell based clone, barring identical twins, who may also vary slightly)

Now, onto the relevant section detailing the new organs, please read this and either concede, or be treated with scorn and derision.


This shift to a predominantly plant-based diet has resulted in the dramatic evolution of intestinal morphology. Morphological analysis of preserved specimens shows the presence of cecal valves (Fig. 4) in all individuals, including a hatchling (26.4-mm snout-vent length, umbilical scar present) and a very young juvenile (33.11-mm snout-vent length) examined from Pod Mrčaru. These valves are similar in overall appearance and structure to those found in herbivorous lacertid, agamid, and iguanid lizards (13, 14) and are not found in other populations of P. sicula (13) or in P. melisellensis. Cecal valves slow down food passage and provide for fermenting chambers, allowing commensal microorganisms to convert cellulose to volatile fatty acids (15, 16). Indeed, in the lizards from Pod Mrčaru, nematodes were common in the hindgut but absent from individuals from Pod Kopište. The fact that <1% of all currently known species of squamates have cecal valves (13, 14) illustrates the unusual nature of these structures in this population. The evolution of these structures has likely gone hand in hand with a novel association between P. sicula on Pod Mrčaru and a set of microorganisms assuring the digestion of cellulose as is suggested by the presence of nematodes in the hindgut of individuals from Pod Mrčaru.


Right, so these things, totally absent in the ancestral population, develop in the subpopulation after the selective pressure on it was altered, it thus qualifies it as a novel structure previously unseen in the species, and again, phenotypic variation, by nature, demands genotypic variation, aka mutation.


I am sure you will come up with something, like peppered moths or such. But the fact is a fact that you will ignore and filter out so your belief system will survive. There are "mountains"more.

You guys are sure not good debunkers. But is sure is fun watching you try.


Hmph, see above.

How about another one, of mutation producing different features that enabled insects to survive in a unique niche? This one relates to body size.

Background

The correlations between Phanerozoic atmospheric oxygen fluctuations and insect body size suggest that higher oxygen levels facilitate the evolution of larger size in insects.

Methods and Principal Findings

Testing this hypothesis we selected Drosophila melanogaster for large size in three oxygen atmospheric partial pressures (aPO2). Fly body sizes increased by 15% during 11 generations of size selection in 21 and 40 kPa aPO2. However, in 10 kPa aPO2, sizes were strongly reduced. Beginning at the 12th generation, flies were returned to normoxia. All flies had similar, enlarged sizes relative to the starting populations, demonstrating that selection for large size had functionally equivalent genetic effects on size that were independent of aPO2.

Significance

Hypoxia provided a physical constraint on body size even in a tiny insect strongly selected for larger mass, supporting the hypothesis that Triassic hypoxia may have contributed to a reduction in insect size.


Insects evolved in terms of body size when oxygen levels allowed it, big insects may have the advantage of having less predation to face, or find it easier to hunt smaller insects, for instance.
GenesForLife
 
Posts: 2920
Age: 34
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#33  Postby redwhine » Aug 26, 2010 11:11 am

@ stevebee92653

I min. 30 secs. into the vid., one of the guys is a gal. (She certainly fooled you!)

...and after 2 mins., what's 'evoled'? A small electronic rodent like a water vole, perhaps.
Like BEER? ...Click here!

What do I believe?

Atheism is myth understood.
User avatar
redwhine
 
Posts: 7815
Age: 71
Male

Country: England
England (eng)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#34  Postby Shrunk » Aug 26, 2010 11:15 am

Nice try GenesforLife. However, I already informed Steve about Podarcis sicula on his blog. He scoffed at it. Of course, he didn't actually provide an argument against it. Maybe he'll be so kind as to at least make an attempt at one this time.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 59
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#35  Postby GenesForLife » Aug 26, 2010 12:37 pm

Well, the onlookers here will take note of such attempts to handwave said evidence away.
GenesForLife
 
Posts: 2920
Age: 34
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#36  Postby Shrunk » Aug 26, 2010 1:08 pm

Just to anticipate Steve's next mocking riposte, I expect he'll claim that Weaver and GenesforLife are contradicting each other. However, their apparent disagreement only arises from the vagueness of the terms that Steve uses, such that his arguments become meaningless. When he says "mutations in a multi-cellular species initiating, forming, shaping healthy utilitarian tissues, and placing those tissues in just the correct position in the body" it could have at least two meanings. If he means the spontaneous emergence of complex "biosystems" (another meaningless Steveism), such as eyes or circulatory systems, as a whole, in species which did not possess these before, then, as Weaver points out, this is an absurdity that is not claimed by any competent biologist.

If, OTOH, Steve means gradual incremental modification of existing structures, then examples of such abound, GenesforLife having cited just a couple of these.
"A community is infinitely more brutalised by the habitual employment of punishment than it is by the occasional occurrence of crime." -Oscar Wilde
User avatar
Shrunk
 
Posts: 26170
Age: 59
Male

Country: Canada
Canada (ca)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#37  Postby natselrox » Aug 26, 2010 1:45 pm

I just posted a story on the E&NS section about a new event of evilution before our eyes. Maybe stevebee will take a look.
When in perplexity, read on.

"A system that values obedience over curiosity isn’t education and it definitely isn’t science"
User avatar
natselrox
 
Posts: 10037
Age: 112
Male

India (in)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#38  Postby Calilasseia » Aug 26, 2010 1:52 pm

Oh I presented the Podarcis sicula paper to Robert Byers over a year ago at RDF. His reaction was to play duplicitous apologetics with it, despite the fact that I presented the paper in detail so that everyone could see that he was playing "let's make shit up and misrepresent the authors in order to prop up my wishful thinking".
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22634
Age: 62
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#39  Postby HughMcB » Aug 26, 2010 2:12 pm

stevebee92653 wrote:HughMcB: What are the notions of goat herders that you think I follow? I can't wait to hear.

That life arose from supernatural forces. I don't know beyond that, you seem to be claiming you are not a Christian, correct?

stevebee92653 wrote:Answer to your question: Fact: No person has ever observed mutations in a multi-cellular species initiating, forming, shaping healthy utilitarian tissues, and placing those tissues in just the correct position in the body of the host so that the host will better survive. I am sure you will come up with something, like peppered moths or such. But the fact is a fact that you will ignore and filter out so your belief system will survive. There are "mountains"more.

As for this, I believe GenesForLife sufficiently ripped you a new one. I would love to hear your rebuttal. :think:
"So we're just done with phrasing?"
User avatar
HughMcB
RS Donator
 
Posts: 19113
Age: 39
Male

Country: Canada
Ireland (ie)
Print view this post

Re: Debunking stevebee92653 youtube video

#40  Postby GenesForLife » Aug 26, 2010 2:51 pm

As for new tissues being formed by mutations , try cancer :thumbup:
GenesForLife
 
Posts: 2920
Age: 34
Male

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

PreviousNext

Return to Creationism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest