Psalm23 wrote:My reason for not praying for the penguin thing is because, to me, it is ludicrous. Nothing real scientific there, just my own personal opinion and feelings on the matter.

Yep, got it. I was trying to find out by what criteria led you to conclude that the penguins were ridiculous but the other things were not.

It seemed pretty arbitrary to me, but not to worry.

Crocodile Gandhi wrote:

Psalm23 wrote:
Let's try an experiment.

Pick something supernatural that would convince you to become a follower of Jesus. I will pray for that thing to happen. We'll see where it goes.

Whatever you pick should be verifiable by these forums. (photographic evidence, etc.)

Feel free to throw out any other suggestions for parameters for our little experiment.

Cheers,
Cody

Ok. Tonight, during the football match between Ghana and Uruguay I would like o see every player on the field disappear into thin air. This should occur precisely ten minutes into the match. After each of the players disappear into thin air I would like to see them replaced by penguins wearing the respective colours of the two teams. The players can then re-materialse and the game can continue. This will be an event that will be seen by millions of people both at the stadium and on television.

I await your prayer.

Or better yet have god make those damn vuvuzelas vanish into thin air. It's not as silly as penguins and it would instantly make the world a much better place.

Here's my favorite bit about Cody's "experiment". If it goes his way, we're expected to fall down groveling at the altar of jeebus. But, when (not if) it doesn't go his way, he just takes a free pass.

Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

The_Metatron wrote:Here's my favorite bit about Cody's "experiment". If it goes his way, we're expected to fall down groveling at the altar of jeebus. But, when (not if) it doesn't go his way, he just takes a free pass.

Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

Now now, that strategy has worked for theists for thousands of years, don't go fixing it now

The_Metatron wrote:Here's my favorite bit about Cody's "experiment". If it goes his way, we're expected to fall down groveling at the altar of jeebus. But, when (not if) it doesn't go his way, he just takes a free pass.

Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

You're not expected to do anything, Metatron.

Psalm23 wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:Here's my favorite bit about Cody's "experiment". If it goes his way, we're expected to fall down groveling at the altar of jeebus. But, when (not if) it doesn't go his way, he just takes a free pass.

Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

You're not expected to do anything, Metatron.

Perhaps you would elucidate the point of your "experiment" for us, then.

Psalm23 wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:Here's my favorite bit about Cody's "experiment". If it goes his way, we're expected to fall down groveling at the altar of jeebus. But, when (not if) it doesn't go his way, he just takes a free pass.

Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

You're not expected to do anything, Metatron.

Perhaps not. But given that you invited us to "pick something supernatural that would convince [us] to become a follower of Jesus", refusal to do so opens us up to accusations of irrationally rejecting jebus love, when clear evidence of his power has been presented (exactly to our specifications to boot).

So either way, the point stands. For this "experiment" to count for anything, you must be willing to stand by and accept the outcome if it fails.

UnderConstruction wrote:

Psalm23 wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:Here's my favorite bit about Cody's "experiment". If it goes his way, we're expected to fall down groveling at the altar of jeebus. But, when (not if) it doesn't go his way, he just takes a free pass.

Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

You're not expected to do anything, Metatron.

Perhaps not. But given that you invited us to "pick something supernatural that would convince [us] to become a follower of Jesus", refusal to do so opens us up to accusations of irrationally rejecting jebus love, when clear evidence of his power has been presented (exactly to our specifications to boot).

So either way, the point stands. For this "experiment" to count for anything, you must be willing to stand by and accept the outcome if it fails.

Here's what this experiment reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HAjhtPZGDY

Just because the frog doesn't sing for everyone, it doesn't mean that it can't sing.

Cheers,
Cody

Do you take lessons in dodging questions put to you? Is this subject taught at jeebus camp sunday skool?

Psalm23 wrote:

UnderConstruction wrote:

Psalm23 wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:Here's my favorite bit about Cody's "experiment". If it goes his way, we're expected to fall down groveling at the altar of jeebus. But, when (not if) it doesn't go his way, he just takes a free pass.

Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

You're not expected to do anything, Metatron.

Perhaps not. But given that you invited us to "pick something supernatural that would convince [us] to become a follower of Jesus", refusal to do so opens us up to accusations of irrationally rejecting jebus love, when clear evidence of his power has been presented (exactly to our specifications to boot).

So either way, the point stands. For this "experiment" to count for anything, you must be willing to stand by and accept the outcome if it fails.

Here's what this experiment reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HAjhtPZGDY

Just because the frog doesn't sing for everyone, it doesn't mean that it can't sing.

Cheers,
Cody

Singing frogs. Christianity. Yup, same category

The_Metatron wrote:Do you take lessons in dodging questions put to you? Is this subject taught at jeebus camp sunday skool?

Do a quick search. The first question mark on this entire page is in the youtube URL I posted and the second is you asking if I have had lessons in dodging questions.

Would you like to ask me a question now? I'm not trying to dodge anything.

Cheers,
Cody

Psalm23 wrote:

UnderConstruction wrote:

Psalm23 wrote:

The_Metatron wrote:Here's my favorite bit about Cody's "experiment". If it goes his way, we're expected to fall down groveling at the altar of jeebus. But, when (not if) it doesn't go his way, he just takes a free pass.

Intellectual dishonesty at its finest.

You're not expected to do anything, Metatron.

Perhaps not. But given that you invited us to "pick something supernatural that would convince [us] to become a follower of Jesus", refusal to do so opens us up to accusations of irrationally rejecting jebus love, when clear evidence of his power has been presented (exactly to our specifications to boot).

So either way, the point stands. For this "experiment" to count for anything, you must be willing to stand by and accept the outcome if it fails.

Here's what this experiment reminds me of: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HAjhtPZGDY

Just because the frog doesn't sing for everyone, it doesn't mean that it can't sing.

Cheers,
Cody

So if we see a singing frog, we should accept that they sing based on evidence but if we never see a singing frog, we should just uncritically accept on blind faith that frogs can sing?

Gotcha. Seems just like what you are trying to pull here.

Evasion duly noted, by the way.

Psalm23 wrote:
Would you like to ask me a question now? I'm not trying to dodge anything.

OK then, if God fails to show and these events you have invited us to request do not happen, will you accept this as evidence against the existence of said deity? If not, what value do you feel this "experiment" actually has?

UnderConstruction wrote:

Psalm23 wrote:
Would you like to ask me a question now? I'm not trying to dodge anything.

OK then, if God fails to show and these events you have invited us to request do not happen, will you accept this as evidence against the existence of said deity? If not, what value do you feel this "experiment" actually has?

Yes, I will accept this as evidence that God does not exist.

The value of this experiment, I feel, lies in the fact that if God does not do anything tonight I will look ridiculous. However, God is not immediately proved to be false simply on the basis of nothing happening this evening. Like the singing frog, God is a sentient free-will being that can choose whether or not He wishes to act at any given moment. He is sovereign.

If, however, Nautilidae's house disappears tonight before his very eyes at Midnight and he is able to capture this on film, it proves the existence of the supernatural realm just about as well as it can ever be proven. It also provides compelling evidence for the existence of God - specifically, my God, Jesus Christ, and does so with a great amount of gravity and power.

Cheers,
Cody

I really hope his house disappears, if only to see the insurance claim

CJ wrote:I really hope his house disappears, if only to see the insurance claim

Am I God?

Psalm23 wrote:

UnderConstruction wrote:

Psalm23 wrote:
Would you like to ask me a question now? I'm not trying to dodge anything.

OK then, if God fails to show and these events you have invited us to request do not happen, will you accept this as evidence against the existence of said deity? If not, what value do you feel this "experiment" actually has?

Yes, I will accept this as evidence that God does not exist.

The value of this experiment, I feel, lies in the fact that if God does not do anything tonight I will look ridiculous. However, God is not immediately proved to be false simply on the basis of nothing happening this evening. Like the singing frog, God is a sentient free-will being that can choose whether or not He wishes to act at any given moment. He is sovereign.

If, however, Nautilidae's house disappears tonight before his very eyes at Midnight and he is able to capture this on film, it proves the existence of the supernatural realm just about as well as it can ever be proven. It also provides compelling evidence for the existence of God - specifically, my God, Jesus Christ, and does so with a great amount of gravity and power.

Cheers,
Cody

Hmm, this still seems very much loaded in your favour.

If you win, you have near enough proof positive of a powerful supernatural force. Furthermore, this force would have appeared to respond to a specific request on your part, lending some credibility to the notion that it is in fact the sky pappy you bow and scrape to.

On the other hand, if you lose, we have a teensy, tiny bit of evidence to suggest that this being does not exist, that you will easily hand wave away as God simply not being in the mood at the moment (or similar).

Now the fact that an actual supernatural event in response to these prayers is incredibly unlikely non-withstanding, I am still spectacularly unimpressed.

CJ wrote:I really hope his house disappears, if only to see the insurance claim

I'm praying for it to come back at 12:05 AM...

Cheers,
Cody

Psalm23 wrote:

Thanks. You can find other news of the obvious here. I'm just recalling a certain special someone who requested ills to heal with the power of his prayer, which sparked off the typical round of not-my-fault apologetic drek. When I see history repeating itself, I just want to skip to the end. (edit: added the old RDF forum link, ah, nostalgia)

I read some of that thread but it is quite long so I mostly just skipped to reading truffdog's responses.

I believe that God heals people through prayer just like he does but I can't assert that God wants to heal everybody because it has not been my experience that he does. (I suffer from several conditions personally, of which I have never been miraculously relieved.) I agree with this guy that God loves everyone and wants them to believe in Him but at the same time, there is clearly a reason that God hasn't come down in the sight of all men and proved Himself beyond a shadow of a doubt.

However, since I do believe that prayer is powerful and since I have never tried an experiment like this before, we will see what happens. I have no doubt that God is capable. My question is, will He choose to make this guy, Nautilidae's house "disappear" for 5 minutes tonight. I don't know.

I see the discussion has advanced, pretty much as expected; although I am pleased to see other skeptics pointing out the disingenuity of this prayer challenge. It is a credit to the skeptics here that they are willing to stake their position on it, and demonstrate their willingness to change their minds based on new data.

It is also illustrative of the difference between us. When you staked out your position, it was one of intransigence. It's no experiment, you're not testing anything. Nothing about your theory will change because of it. You hold your god-concept as true regardless. It demeans the concept of 'hypothesis' to even apply it to this drek.

Shadrach, Meshach and Abed-nego replied to the king, "O Nebuchadnezzar, we do not need to give you an answer concerning this matter. If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the furnace of blazing fire; and He will deliver us out of your hand, O king. But even if He does not, let it be known to you, O king, that we are not going to serve your gods or worship the golden image that you have set up."

It's worth noting that there really is no point in discussing things with you in the hopes of making change in your POV. At best, your thread can only serve as an example to others. Your argument is for the cause of proselytization (however within the rules it may be) and so Metatron has it right; the argument is an exemplar of intellectual dishonesty. It is a great example of the value of falsifiability.

So praying for a couple of football teams to be turned into penguins is ludicrous yet believing a man rose from the dead [based on little but hearsay] against the laws of nature is not?