Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#181  Postby Rumraket » Jul 20, 2010 9:10 am

mindyourmind wrote:There's something about ID (in all it's guises) isn't there .....


Something that seems to force its proponents to rather obscure facts, rather lie, rather distort ....than accept the truth. Rather break tons of Biblical do's and don's but DO NOT accept reality.

Oh well, it's sad but very amusing, most of the time.

Yes, and I know what that thing is. It's the fact that it doesn't fit with what reality tells us.

If you have a predetermined world view, but all your investigations and observations contradict your assertions, you simply HAVE to lie, obscure facts and distort in order to "save" your preconceptions. The alternative is to let go of your preconceptions.
But if you are afraid of the alternative say, because it makes you realise you propably won't see lost family members again, or because you think "life is just meaningless if we are just matter", or endless variations on that theme, then letting go of those preconceptions can be extremely difficult.

This is of course not to mention those specious, doctrinalist charlatans and bullshitting individuals who actively profit from lying to the uneducated and the credulous. People like Michael Behe, William Dembski etc.
The committed liars, who make money selling books full of shit to people without the intellectual capacity or scientific curiosity to investigate nature, or the previously mentioned appeal-to-consequences, fearful individuals.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#182  Postby argumentativealex » Jul 20, 2010 9:41 am

Polanyi wrote:

I mean this in all sincerity, I don’t understand why you get so mad when I use the term “evolutionist” or “Darwinist”, Dawkins considers himself a “Darwinist”, that is he believes the Darwinian mechanism is sufficient to explain the complexity and diversity of life.


A creationist is a person who believes


...and there you have it. Creationists believe, scientists look for evidence. Why did you feel the need to ask the question?
idofcourse - "That God created the universe is so obvious the Bible doesn’t even bother with a proof."
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#183  Postby mindyourmind » Jul 20, 2010 9:53 am

Rumraket wrote:
mindyourmind wrote:There's something about ID (in all it's guises) isn't there .....


Something that seems to force its proponents to rather obscure facts, rather lie, rather distort ....than accept the truth. Rather break tons of Biblical do's and don's but DO NOT accept reality.

Oh well, it's sad but very amusing, most of the time.

Yes, and I know what that thing is. It's the fact that it doesn't fit with what reality tells us.

If you have a predetermined world view, but all your investigations and observations contradict your assertions, you simply HAVE to lie, obscure facts and distort in order to "save" your preconceptions. The alternative is to let go of your preconceptions.
But if you are afraid of the alternative say, because it makes you realise you propably won't see lost family members again, or because you think "life is just meaningless if we are just matter", or endless variations on that theme, then letting go of those preconceptions can be extremely difficult.

This is of course not to mention those specious, doctrinalist charlatans and bullshitting individuals who actively profit from lying to the uneducated and the credulous. People like Michael Behe, William Dembski etc.
The committed liars, who make money selling books full of shit to people without the intellectual capacity or scientific curiosity to investigate nature, or the previously mentioned appeal-to-consequences, fearful individuals.


I hope this doesn't sound as if I am making excuses for that type of approach, but you can sort of understand it at some level. The IDist is faced with a brutal choice (self-imposed as it may be) : Option 1 is love God / don't go to hell and find a way to dismiss all of that science stuff or Option 2, face reality and the theistic worldview picks up a lot of holes below the waterline. If you want to see a daily, detailed exhibit of Christians trying to balance those knives in the air, bookmark the BioLogos website, a highly regarded "scientific" evangelical Christian website.

From that perspective - what's a few lies, distortions, re-interpretations, selective dismissal of facts and such assorted misdemeanors? Lying for Jesus is one's Christian duty.
So the reason why God created the universe, including millions of years of human and animal suffering, and the extinction of entire species, is so that some humans who have passed his test can be with him forever. I see.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#184  Postby dionysus » Jul 20, 2010 2:00 pm

MrFungus420 wrote:
Polanyi wrote:
Please show me where you borrowed that phrase from, google returns only this forum and your facebook diatribes.


“On the view of each organism with all its separate parts having been specially created, how utterly inexplicable is it that organs bearing the plain stamp of inutility… should so frequently occur.”


Darwin, The Origin of Species, Chapters XIV (p. 350) and XV (pp. 366-367).


Once again, the devil is in the ellipses...

"On the view of each organism with all its separate parts having been specially created, how utterly inexplicable is it that organs bearing the plain stamp of inutility, such as the teeth in the embryonic calf or the shrivelled wings under the soldered wingcovers of many beetles, should so frequently occur."

So, unlike your misrepresentation of what he said, at least one of the examples that he gave (the beetle's wings, I'm not familiar with the calf's teeth) is valid, just as much now as it was then.


It's at the point where if we see a quote from Polanyi, it's virtually guaranteed to be a quote mine or plagiarism. I don't know who the hell he's trying to fool anymore as none of us are falling for it and every time he engages in such dishonesty he rather quickly gets found out. The way I see it, he is either being hopelessly clueless and really thinks he's convincing people or he's trolling. I just can't see any other way to explain the behavior I'm seeing from him.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#185  Postby Nautilidae » Jul 20, 2010 2:02 pm

I think that it's safe to say that Polanyi has, for now, abandoned this thread. We await his next thread.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#186  Postby DaveD » Jul 20, 2010 2:04 pm

Nautilidae wrote:I think that it's safe to say that Polanyi has, for now, abandoned this thread. We await his next thread.

Just for once he had no choice in the matter, he was suspended.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#187  Postby Nautilidae » Jul 20, 2010 2:05 pm

DaveD wrote:
Nautilidae wrote:I think that it's safe to say that Polanyi has, for now, abandoned this thread. We await his next thread.

Just for once he had no choice in the matter, he was suspended.


Oh. I didn't see that.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#188  Postby hotshoe » Jul 20, 2010 4:27 pm

Nautilidae wrote:
DaveD wrote:
Nautilidae wrote:I think that it's safe to say that Polanyi has, for now, abandoned this thread. We await his next thread.

Just for once he had no choice in the matter, he was suspended.


Oh. I didn't see that.


Still a good prediction, though. When/if he comes back in a month he likely won't get back to this thread; he'll have cooked up yet another mess of mis-quoted garbage. Let's see, he hasn't really tried "specified complex information". :lol:
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#189  Postby mindyourmind » Jul 20, 2010 5:41 pm

hotshoe wrote:
Nautilidae wrote:
DaveD wrote:
Nautilidae wrote:I think that it's safe to say that Polanyi has, for now, abandoned this thread. We await his next thread.

Just for once he had no choice in the matter, he was suspended.


Oh. I didn't see that.


Still a good prediction, though. When/if he comes back in a month he likely won't get back to this thread; he'll have cooked up yet another mess of mis-quoted garbage. Let's see, he hasn't really tried "specified complex information". :lol:


OK, good guess, but my vote is for a little something dragged from Myer's Signature in the Cell, and the subsequent dingdong following on that. And I'll give you 2/1 odds :mrgreen:

He'll bring the Big Guns next time :whistle:
So the reason why God created the universe, including millions of years of human and animal suffering, and the extinction of entire species, is so that some humans who have passed his test can be with him forever. I see.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#190  Postby CharlieM » Jul 20, 2010 5:45 pm

Calilasseia to Polanyi:
Oh, and since there exists a scientific paper published in the physics literature, in which the authors demonstrate that a universe in which the weak nuclear force was absent, would actually be better suited for life in some respects, your apologetic faeces about "fine-tuning" is precisely that - apologetic faeces. Here's the paper in question:

A Universe Without Weak Interactions by Roni Harnik, Grahama D. Kribs and Gilad Perez, arXiv, 4th April 2006 [Full paper downloadable from here]

So, apparently the universe could do without one of the four so-called "fundamental" forces of nature, and stellar nucleosynthesis would still proceed to produce relevant chemical elements. Also, chemistry would be effectively unchanged by the absence of this force.

So much for fucking "fine tuning".


Where in this paper do the authors demonstrate that a universe in which the weak nuclear force was absent, would actually be better suited for life in some respects?

This paper is pure speculation. Nothing wrong with that but you are using it as evidence that the weak force can be discarded without much effect. You forget to mention the difficulties with their proposed scenario.

For example, a difficulty which they see as no more than a curiosity may be seen as a bigger problem for origin of life researchers:

the existence of a molten core that is continually heated by radioactive uranium and thorium in earth-like planets would not occur in the Weakless Universe. Plate tectonics, volcanos, geothermal heat, etc., would not exist billions of years after planets form. Nevertheless, we do not view this difference with our Universe as anything more than a curiosity.


A paper pointing out some problems of a weakless universe can be found here:
http://bama.ua.edu/~lclavell/papers/weakless2c.pdf

Form the paper:
We point out, however, that on closer examination the proposed \weakless" universe strongly inhibits the development of life in several different ways. One of the most critical barriers is that a weakless universe is unlikely to produce enough oxygen to support life. Since oxygen is an essential element in both water, the universal solvent needed for life, and in each of the four bases forming the DNA code for known living beings, we strongly question the hypothesis that a
universe without weak interactions could generate life.


Another problem they point out apart from the lack of oxygen is that there would be no known mechanism for providing homochirality.

From the site:
Two recent works [4] suggest that, in order to maintain the understanding that might come from the string landscape, the weakless universe should either be extremely improbable among the potential local minima or the rise of life in such a universe should itself be extremely improbable. In fact, Harnik et al did not demonstrate that life would arise in a weakless universe but claim only an "apparent habitability" of such a universe.


A question you may wish to ask yourself is: Can such a proposed universe produce a form of life that is capable of pondering its existence?

You point to this one speculative paper and cite it as evidence that "the universe could do without one of the four so-called "fundamental" forces of nature".

So much for your statement, 'So much for fucking "fine tuning"'.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#191  Postby hotshoe » Jul 20, 2010 6:00 pm

CharlieM, it's a bit rich to claim there's something wrong with "one speculative paper" when your entire ID/creationist worldview is based on complete speculation and complete lack of evidence whatsoever. :roll:
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#192  Postby CharlieM » Jul 20, 2010 6:30 pm

Hotshoe, did you read my post?

I said, "This paper is pure speculation. Nothing wrong with that"

Also you are presuming to know what my worldview is.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#193  Postby eddie.zdi » Jul 20, 2010 6:43 pm

:grin:
"Science is the lawman of ignorance" - Me 1984 - ????
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#194  Postby hotshoe » Jul 20, 2010 6:46 pm

CharlieM wrote:
Also you are presuming to know what my worldview is.


Yes, based on other statements from you in other threads. I'm happy to apologize for my mistake - if it's a mistake. Is it ?
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#195  Postby Rumraket » Jul 20, 2010 7:08 pm

CharlieM wrote:Hotshoe, did you read my post?

I said, "This paper is pure speculation. Nothing wrong with that"

Also you are presuming to know what my worldview is.

I think the paper you you cite provides some fair criticisms of the possiblity of life in a weak-force-less Universe.
However when we are talking about "pure speculation" one must also reckognise that the initial argument presented by Polanyi, the fine-tuning argument, is itself pure speculation.
The argument is laced with assumtions about the laws of physics. Are they actually "tunable" and if they are, are they possibly dependent on each other? Did the universe even begin? If it is eternal, then obviously no initial "tuning" ever took place. If the universe began, are the laws an underlying "rule" that matter obeys or themselves an integrated part of the universe, that is inherent in space, time, matter and energy? If they are inherent, could they even be any other way? If they could, and they were indeed somehow tuned, how do we know it is for the purpose of allowing life and not just galaxies or stars or molten rock or water? Maybe they were tuned for the existence of uranium? Maybe they were the result of some cosmic evolution of universes. Do we even know whether these constants really are constants and not just artifacts of incomplete theories? etc. etc.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#196  Postby CharlieM » Jul 20, 2010 7:18 pm

Hotshoe:
I'm happy to apologize for my mistake - if it's a mistake. Is it ?


Putting people in boxes is something I try to avoid, but if you really want to do so, in a very broad sense you could call me an evolutionary creationist.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#197  Postby hotshoe » Jul 20, 2010 7:29 pm

CharlieM wrote:
Hotshoe:
I'm happy to apologize for my mistake - if it's a mistake. Is it ?


Putting people in boxes is something I try to avoid, but if you really want to do so, in a very broad sense you could call me an evolutionary creationist.


Fair enough 8-)
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#198  Postby Blitzkrebs » Jul 20, 2010 8:40 pm

Calilasseia wrote:But then, creationists and postmodernists share one essential characteristic. Namely, that they think that all they have to do is erect the right word salad with respect to their wishful thinking, and reality will somehow magically rearrange itself to conform thereto. Just as postmodernists ignore reality and instead, think that the world conforms to whatever nebulous and miasmatic brand of wishful thinking tickles their particular ideological erogenous zones, creationists likewise ignore reality and think instead that the world must necessarily conform to the strictures of their doctrine.


For sure. I believe the greatest likeness between Postmodernists and Creationists is that they think somehow that subjective concerns should matter at all when evaluating the conclusions of researchers. Actually, I have to give Creationists some credit, for I can usually read their "moral" objections to evolution with a straight face.

That's more than I can say of the Postmodernist description of physics, which calls Newton's Principia a "rape manual" and claims that E=mc2 is a "sexed" equation.

The privileging of solid over fluid mechanics, and indeed the inability of science to deal with turbulent flow at all, she attributes to the association of fluidity with femininity. Whereas men have sex organs that protrude and become rigid, women have openings that leak menstrual blood and vaginal fluids... From this perspective it is no wonder that science has not been able to arrive at a successful model for turbulence. The problem of turbulent flow cannot be solved because the conceptions of fluids (and of women) have been formulated so as necessarily to leave unarticulated remainders.


:rofl2:
ikster7579 wrote:Being rational is just an excuse for not wanting to have faith.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#199  Postby hotshoe » Jul 20, 2010 10:14 pm

Please give us a link to your source. In this thread especially, failure to link is a no-no.
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Re: Gap arguments: what the layman should know.

#200  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 20, 2010 10:17 pm

If you're referring to the piece on postmodernist wibble in the post immediately above yours, the link to Dawkins' review of Sokal's book was posted about two pages back. :)
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