Spin-off from "Dialog on 'Creationists read this' "
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Jayjay4547 wrote: in the case of “rational skeptics” the central belief is that you don’t need to act as though there is a God.
Jayjay4547 wrote: at the other extreme Darwin could have said that Nature had presented creative opportunities for improvement, which populations flowed into thanks to the mechanisms of natural selection.
Jayjay4547 wrote: If it weren’t for atheist ideology,
Jayjay4547 wrote: this spectrum of explanations for human origins would have long been explored in detail from one end to the other.
Jayjay4547 wrote:And it’s a pity that society has clustered towards the end that discounts the power and grace of what is out there, which I have been calling “biomes”. We can’t afford that right now.
Jayjay4547 wrote:in the case of “rational skeptics” the central belief is that you don’t need to act as though there is a God.
the central belief is that you don’t need to act as though there is a God.
The term was suggested in 1916 by Clements, originally as a synonym for biotic community of Möbius (1877).[4] Later, it gained its current definition, based on earlier concepts of phytophysiognomy, formation and vegetation (used in opposition to flora), with the inclusion of the animal element and the exclusion of the taxonomic element of species composition.[5][6] In 1935, Tansley added the climatic and soil aspects to the idea, calling it ecosystem.[7][8] The International Biological Program (1964–74) projects popularized the concept of biome.[9]
Lamarckism
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Clements was an advocate of neo-Lamarckian evolution. Ecologist Arthur Tansley wrote that because of his support for Lamarckism, Clements "never seemed to give proper weight to the results of modern genetical research."[9]
Science historian Ronald C. Tobey has commented that:
[Clements] believed that plants and animals could acquire a wide variety and range of characteristics in their struggle to survive and adapt to their environment, and that these features were heritable. In the 1920s, he conducted experiments to transform plant species native to one ecological zone into a species adapted to another, higher, zone. Clements was quite convinced of the validity of his experiments, but this experimental Lamarckism fell to experimental disproof in the 1930s.[10]
Clements spent much time trying to demonstrate the inheritance of acquired traits in plants. By the late 1930s scientists had provided Darwinian explanations for the results of his transplant experiments.[11]
Sendraks wrote:Jayjay4547 wrote: at the other extreme Darwin could have said that Nature had presented creative opportunities for improvement, which populations flowed into thanks to the mechanisms of natural selection.
Darwin could have said this and it would indeed have been an extreme, given that such a statement would not have been supported by the evidence.
Sendraks wrote: The question for you JayJay is in what way Darwin wrote in any way can be considered an extreme, given it was supported by evidence?
Sendraks wrote:Jayjay4547 wrote: this spectrum of explanations for human origins would have long been explored in detail from one end to the other.
Do the thousands of years preceeding Darwin when humanity came up with all sorts of fascinating but, ultimately baseless, explanations for human origins not count all of a sudden?
Sendraks wrote:Jayjay4547 wrote:And it’s a pity that society has clustered towards the end that discounts the power and grace of what is out there, which I have been calling “biomes”. We can’t afford that right now.
It is a pity that science has focused on evidence based explanations for how life evolved?
Your suggestion that we ignore science being something "we can't afford right now" runs rather in stark contrast to the message that because people ARE ignoring science, the climate is in dire straights.
Jayjay4547 wrote:And so long as you link science with rabid atheism, that is bad publicity for science.
Jayjay4547 wrote:One could just as well argue that science got us into this mess by enabling unsustainable population growth, energy consumption, waste production and enslavement of the environment.
One could just as well argue that science got us into this mess by enabling unsustainable population growth, energy consumption, waste production and enslavement of the environment.
Jayjay4547 wrote:
I had said everything in that post, a number of times before. Though I have got a bit better at it over time.
Jayjay4547 wrote:Your reaction stamp you as the exactly the kind of ideologue I am identifying.
Jayjay4547 wrote:Anyway my point in identifying a central belief in terms of action was to sidestep the argument often made by ratskeptics that they don’t believe anything therefore they can’t have an ideology.
Jayjay4547 wrote:Of course the evidence supported
Jayjay4547 wrote:Let me rephrase, that his presentation of evolution in his (powerful) conclusion to Origin of Species, was at ONE END of a spectrum of possible framings he was equipped to present.
Jayjay4547 wrote:It was like saying that The Titanic sank because steel is denser than water.
Jayjay4547 wrote:
The atheist ideology is what makes you happy as a pig in shit, to believe that you don't need to act as though there is no God, it exists in your head and on this forum and you inhabit it, you don’t “subscribe” to it.
Spearthrower wrote:
Oh ffs, Alan! Didn't you read the thread?
In summary, it's 19th century Anglican church holistic prognostications about the deterministic Ordovican Legolas-Gimli self-creative divide encapsulated in naturalistic gedenken hierarchies of chimpanzee canine biting profiles in haka fecal throwing as evidenced by Russian battle captains' advancement plans in Sviatoslav's campaign against Khazars, the content of Bilbo Baggin's wet-dreams, and the picture I drew tabulating all this here:
You're just not even trying anymore, are you Alan?
Alan B wrote:I must confess I haven't read all the thread, but thanks for clearing that up.
Alan B wrote:I must do a web search for my nearest ABC (Atheism Belief Centre).
Spearthrower wrote:
Do make sure you pick up a copy of your Atheist's Bible while you're there, otherwise how would you know if you're doing your not believing in gods right?
Also, be careful not to pick up the Atheist's Qur'an by mistake - that's blasphemous nonsense... they don't believe in the wrong god!
Destroyer wrote:Jayjay4547 wrote:in the case of “rational skeptics” the central belief is that you don’t need to act as though there is a God.
What does it mean to 'act' as though there is no God? I am pretty certain that you are implying that humans who do not espouse convictions in the existence of any gods are then given free rein to all manner of immoral acts.
Destroyer wrote: This is why it is necessary for you to insist on atheists as an homogenous group who share the same ideology.
Destroyer wrote: If you simply accept the fact that the theory of evolution does indeed adequately describe the mechanisms for the creation of species without necessary recourse to any other agency, then you would have no basis upon which to constantly insist upon a unified atheistic ideology.
Destroyer wrote: ...otherwise it has to be accepted that atheists have every right to view evolution as supporting the hypothesis that no supernatural mechanisms were required in this process... But to keep implying that atheists are a unified ideological group whose foundations have their basis in immoral conducts, since that is what apparently unifies them: "acting as though there is no God", is indeed a disingenuous smokescreen to evade the fact that evolution does indeed support this view.
“Doth some one say that there be gods above?
There are not; no, there are not. Let no fool,
Led by the old false fable, thus deceive you.”
1 A time there was when disorder ruled
Human lives, which were then, like lives of beasts,
Enslaved to force; nor was there then reward
For the good, nor for the wicked punishment.
5 Next, it seems to me, humans established laws
For punishment, that justice might rule
Over the tribe of mortals, and wanton injury be subdued;
And whosoever did wrong was penalized.
Next, as the laws held [mortals] back from deeds
10 Of open violence, but still such deeds
Were done in secret,—then, I think,
Some shrewd man first, a man in judgment wise,
Found for mortals the fear of gods,
Thereby to frighten the wicked should they
15 Even act or speak or scheme in secret.
Hence it was that he introduced the divine
Telling how the divinity enjoys endless life,
Hears and sees, and takes thought
And attends to things, and his nature is divine,
20 So that everything which mortals say is heard
And everything done is visible.
Even if you plan in silence some evil deed
It will not be hidden from the gods: for discernment
Lies in them. So, speaking words like these,
25 The sweetest teaching did he introduce,
Concealing truth under untrue speech.
The place he spoke of as the gods' abode
Was that by which he might awe humans most,—
The place from which, he knew, terrors came to mortals
30 And things advantageous in their wearisome life—
The revolving heaven above, in which dwell
The lightnings, and awesome claps
Of thunder, and the starry face of heaven,
Beautiful and intricate by that wise craftsman Time,—
35 From which, too, the meteor's glowing mass speeds
And wet thunderstorm pours forth upon the earth.
Such were the fears with which he surrounded mortals,
And to the divinity he gave a fitting home,
By this his speech, and in a fitting place,
40 And [thus] extinguished lawlessness by laws.
Ted Cruz declared last year that someone who does not begin every day on “his knees” (sic) is not fit to be commander-in-chief. Atheism is controversial, in the US as in many other countries around the world. But both its detractors and its supporters tend to portray lack of faith in a divine power as a possibility or danger available only in modern times.
Those in the Cruz camp often view atheism as a marker and a cause of the degeneration of contemporary society; Cruz’s father famously declared that it is the cause of sexual abuse.
Despite being written out of large parts of history, atheists thrived in the polytheistic societies of the ancient world – raising considerable doubts about whether humans really are “wired” for religion – a new study suggests.
The claim is the central proposition of a new book by Tim Whitmarsh, Professor of Greek Culture and a Fellow of St John’s College, University of Cambridge. In it, he suggests that atheism – which is typically seen as a modern phenomenon – was not just common in ancient Greece and pre-Christian Rome, but probably flourished more in those societies than in most civilisations since.
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