Thommo wrote:Spearthrower wrote:Yes, more than one person already pointed this out, but even ignoring that internal contradiction, it still doesn't stand to reason that a general true statement is overturned by a few instances where something else occurred.
This does appear to be the central point. What we see in the video of the baboon and the video of the monkey is that they both (a) employ a defence strategy of retreating to thin branches, (b) do not employ a defence strategy of causing injury by biting and (c) are fatally unsuccessful.
We can probably generalise from (a) and (b), those might well be representative of the defense strategies used by certain primates in certain environments against large cat predation to some degree. This does not, as it happens, support Jayjay's point.
Absolutely.
And this is against a leopard, which is more competent at climbing trees than any other typical predator a baboon faces. Lions would generally come away shame-faced and hungry if they tried this.
So this is a
best case scenario for JJ's argument, and it's just works out
wrong in so many ways. Jj recognizes none of those errors.
The only worse example recorded in this thread is when JJ put up a video of a male baboon standing up to a lioness to support his argument about primate canines being a deterrent to predators while apparently happily ignoring that the video ended with the lions chowing down on the very dead baboon.
Again, I have put this to him in terms of evolution and natural selection. In any sizeable sample of encounters between an impressively canined baboon and a leopard which hasn't stealthily ambushed the monkey, the optimal chance of the baboon remaining in the gene pool is if it flees; it won't always succeed, but it will succeed often enough that it form a stable strategy which selects for the traits permitting that flight.
When a baboon doesn't flee, an awful lot of times will see it be killed by the larger, faster, stronger, and better equipped predator which specialized in killing smaller animals than itself (whatever genetic component therein is selected against - fleeing traits survive, fighty-traits don't get passed on).
There will be a few times when a baboon's impressive flourishing of its impressive canines will flummox the leopard sufficiently to allow the baboon to flee - this can definitely happen when there is an inexperienced juvenile leopard. The infrequency with which this occurs, and the particular circumstances make this nigh on invisible to evolution.
There will be a few times when the baboon and leopard physically engage and the baboon can inflict significant enough damage on the leopard to either allow the baboon to escape, or to cause the leopard to cease to be a threat.
But in every case where the baboon stands ground with the leopard, the chances are very high that even if it succeeds in warding off the predator, that it will take serious physical injury to itself too, quite possibly then removing it from the gene pool.
And in the majority of cases where the baboon and leopard physically interact, the leopard will kill the baboon being much larger, faster, stronger, and better equipped for killing and inflicting damage on other animals, particularly those significantly smaller than itself.
In an evolutionary game, the odds inevitably favour fleeing because it not only results in higher chance of immediate survival, but also minimizes the chance of being injured. Consequently, any genetic component of these traits is preferentially selected and passed onto future generations comparative to those individuals lacking such useful fleeing traits.
Meanwhile, the prey animal that stands its ground may rarely come out on top, uninjured and a healthy lump of free protein to chow on, statistically the outcome is never going to be in its favour as the majority will either die outright or be seriously injured, and consequently its 'fight' traits will be selected against, will become less represented in future generations. It's not an evolutionary stable strategy.
Of course, none of this takes into account the leopard either. This is another huge gap in JJ's thinking. A species that targets prey which routinely turns and kills it is a species that's going to find itself extinct.
Similarly, none of this takes into account the numerous other pressures on baboon teeth and other adaptations either. Eating is very, very important in terms of fitness, and if those teeth can't perform that consumption of key nutrients as efficiently as an individual lacking such impressive dental displays, I think it's a pretty confident bet that they're being actively selected against.
But really, all this is a by-the-by when we can simply look at baboon behavior, note that their social organisation involves dominance hierarchies, note that males fight and make threat-displays to other males, and that the males who are at the top of the hierarchy are more likely to pass on their genes to future generations, then we have a direct equation when it comes to canine size and evolution. That dozens of studies track this relationship, that canine size itself can act as a predictor of social organisation in primates, that direct observations across numerous species confirm this.... makes it a vastly superior argument that cannot be just waved away.
Thommo wrote:We probably can't generalise from (c) because we know baboons and monkeys are not extinct, if the strategy was largely ineffective and predation by large cats was a major determinant of population size then the primates would have to change strategy or would not survive.
We can probably infer that some of the leopards' behaviour was either atypical (lone prey animals in isolated trees, perhaps) or risky (did the leopard risk serious injury by falling? Was it a fluke that the hunt was successful?), but I personally lack the wider knowledge and evidence base that would be needed to make such inferences without going wrong.
I think it's important to remember that predators are capable of assessing the situation. In the case provided, the leopard was aware that the monkey was basically trapped (no trees to escape to) and tried to exploit that. It might not have worked - how many times does a leopard try this and it not work? I have no idea, nor does anyone else as we don't record every single interaction between leopards and monkeys.
What we can say is that the scenario is fairly uncommon because we know that leopards are ambush hunters which use camouflage, stealth, and short explosive speed to catch prey unawares, typically either breaking the neck or sinking their canines into the jugular of their intended prey to quickly kill it. Obviously, all manner of possible shit can hit the fan beyond the remit of predictability, but this is not some kind of quirky idiosyncratic assertion I made up to tailor a counter to JJ - it's widely available, standard information.