In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

By reviewing Stephen Meyers new pro-ID book

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#1  Postby Rumraket » Jun 21, 2013 11:00 am

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2013/06/meyers-hopeless-2.html

Meyer’s Hopeless Monster, Part II

Review of Stephen C. Meyer’s Darwin’s Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the Case for Intelligent Design

This week, a new book came out by Stephen Meyer, Darwin’s Doubt: The Explosive Origin of Animal Life and the Case for Intelligent Design. Having followed the ID movement and specifically its arguments on the Cambrian ‘Explosion’ for a long time, as well being somewhat up on the recent literature, and especially on phylogenetics, I feel that I have a pretty good sense of what to look for in any work purporting to be a capable commentary on the topic. As I read through Meyer’s book, though, in case after case I see misunderstandings, superficial treatment of key issues which are devastating to his thesis once understood, and complete or near-complete omission of information that any non-expert reader would need to have to make an accurate assessment of Meyer’s arguments.

After months of exuberant propaganda about the book from the Discovery Institute, I was half-expecting some kind of definitive, detailed, “serious” treatment of the issue from Meyer, who has had 4 years since his last book to work on this one, and has had 9 years since we raked over the coals his 2004 incompetent and self-plagiarized offering in the blogpost “Meyer’s Hopeless Monster”. I was sorely disappointed. I’ll hit a few of the main points. It would be nice if I had the time to write a comprehensive review, explain the issues from scratch in a Phylogenetics 101 sort of way, and provide detailed references, but given what my summer looks like, this is not likely. So, I’ll just outline what occurs to me as the most significant points– and what would occur to anyone else actually trained in phylogenetic methods, who also knows something about the Cambrian Explosion. If technical terms and the like don’t make sense, I encourage readers to google them. In the cases I have checked, Wikipedia does better at explaining the actual issues and methods than Meyer does.

A. THE “EXPLOSION” TOOK AT LEAST 30 MILLION YEARS, AND WAS NOT REALLY “INSTANTANEOUS” NOR PARTICULARLY “SUDDEN”

Darwin’s Doubt is festooned with illustrations, mostly redrawn from other sources in a rather strange cartoon-like format also found in other recent ID books. However, there is never an illustration like these:
Image


Read the entire article, it makes for hilarious reading.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#2  Postby chairman bill » Jun 21, 2013 11:19 am

Is this why we call creationists 'liars'?
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#3  Postby Rumraket » Jun 21, 2013 11:27 am

Yes, yes it is.

Seriously, that post by Matzke is fucking epic. You get a fucking free education in taxonomy and phylogenetic reconstruction, complete with the evidence compiled in the form of direct creationut refutation.

The internet, I'm telling you, I love the internet. They can't hide the information here. They may write their books and "strangely" neglect all the facts and data they don't like. But woe unto the poor sod who believes their shit, then spends a little time googling their claims just to make sure.

It'd be like this: :jawdrop:
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#4  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 21, 2013 12:47 pm

Heh, I knew that the "Cambrian pop" wasn't an instantaneous event when I was 11.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#5  Postby Rumraket » Jun 21, 2013 12:54 pm

Well, as I've said elsewhere, if your definitions of "instantaneous" and "suddenly" are so broad they include "incrementally over 30 million years" you've lost the argument to begin with.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#6  Postby Richiyaado » Jun 21, 2013 3:34 pm

Nick Matzke's money quote:

If Meyer takes his own arguments at all seriously, he is invoking divine intervention not just for the origin of life and the Cambrian, for basically every new gene, ORFan, any adaptation of any significance, and some ill-specified level of morphological difference. This is, probably, billions of separate divine interventions. It essentially amounts to invoking divine intervention at every instance where Meyer personally doesn’t understand something, even in cases where scientists understand something quite well, and Meyer simply can’t be bothered to do the work necessary to understand what they are talking about.


So it's 'poofing' all the way down.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#7  Postby Rumraket » Jun 22, 2013 11:02 am

Richiyaado wrote:Nick Matzke's money quote:

If Meyer takes his own arguments at all seriously, he is invoking divine intervention not just for the origin of life and the Cambrian, for basically every new gene, ORFan, any adaptation of any significance, and some ill-specified level of morphological difference. This is, probably, billions of separate divine interventions. It essentially amounts to invoking divine intervention at every instance where Meyer personally doesn’t understand something, even in cases where scientists understand something quite well, and Meyer simply can’t be bothered to do the work necessary to understand what they are talking about.


So it's 'poofing' all the way down.

And we have people like CharlieM on this site who assert it's science. :coffee:
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#8  Postby bert » Jun 22, 2013 7:05 pm

I came across this article by Carl Zimmer, which near the end also discusses Matzke and his own collision with the Incredibly Deluded people.

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Meyer should change is name. Start it with an L instead of an M. Would help to prevent me to confuse it with PZ Myers.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#9  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 22, 2013 8:15 pm

bert wrote:I came across this article by Carl Zimmer, which near the end also discusses Matzke and his own collision with the Incredibly Deluded people.

Bert
Meyer should change is name. Start it with an L instead of an M. Would help to prevent me to confuse it with PZ Myers.


You forgot the link. :)
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#10  Postby bert » Jun 22, 2013 10:48 pm

Just wanted to increase the suspense, of course.

http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/loom/ ... cYoaKVJXFs

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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#11  Postby Calilasseia » Jun 22, 2013 11:37 pm

Wow. If you follow all the links from that, through to here, and here, picking up several nice shiny scientific papers along the way (one of which Luskin egregiously quote mined), the demolition job on creationist lies these people have performed is truly a magnificent work of art.

Of course, the fetishists for Jeebus brigade won't read any of it. They'll continue drinking the Kool-Aid supplied by Luskin, Meyer et al, and continue believing the lies they've been fed.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#12  Postby Richiyaado » Jun 23, 2013 12:38 am

Yes, wow... it's an online Gish Gallop. These people are despicable.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#13  Postby Lowpro » Jun 23, 2013 6:12 am

It seems Jireh (or Gibhor aka "Gibhorrent" on JREF) has already taken to Meyer's fairy tales and brought the echo location bs over there.

BTW did Meyer REALLY try to sweep statistics under the rug because statistics produces statistical results?!
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#14  Postby Richiyaado » Jun 23, 2013 2:56 pm

Lowpro wrote:It seems Jireh (or Gibhor aka "Gibhorrent" on JREF) has already taken to Meyer's fairy tales and brought the echo location bs over there.

BTW did Meyer REALLY try to sweep statistics under the rug because statistics produces statistical results?!


As Nick Matzke makes abundantly clear, Meyer doesn't so much sweep statistics under the rug... he simply ignores modern phylogenetic modeling completely, suggesting that he's entirely unaware of what's going on.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#15  Postby Rumraket » Jun 23, 2013 4:55 pm

Lowpro wrote:It seems Jireh (or Gibhor aka "Gibhorrent" on JREF) has already taken to Meyer's fairy tales and brought the echo location bs over there.

BTW did Meyer REALLY try to sweep statistics under the rug because statistics produces statistical results?!

*sigh* - Jireh. That guy really didn't have a clue about anything he ever spoke(read: quotemines and lies copy-pasted from ID and creationist sites) about. I once told him about ribozymes in an argument concerning the possibility of RNA based genomes, and he started mindlessly parroting Institute of Creation Research and Answers in Genesis articles chuck full of quotemines concerning the RNA world. As if he just skimmed through my posts, saw a word related to some quotemine he had at the ready (in this case, RNA) and then just mindlessly copy-pasted propaganda he must have thought refuted the nasty atheist.

I tried to really explain to him that I wasn't actually trying to defend the RNA world first-scenario, but simply getting him to understand that RNA is and does function like an information storage polymer exactly like DNA. He just responded by quoting more dishonest articles full of quotemines and lies, and, get this, telling me he trusted these articles because they were written by people with PhD's.

That was one of the must frustrating "debates" I ever had on this forum. He is so utterly clueless on these subjects, he doesn't even know what any of the terms mean or any of it. He just copy-pastes endlessly, almost never responds directly to questions, and when he does it's obvious he doesn't understand the subject or the question. When you try to explain it to him, he just laughs it off because of the PhD thing. :nono:

After several attempts of unsuccessfully trying to get him to understand that he was committing the appeal to authority fallacy, I tried to ask him if I could show him two articles by people with PhD's for every one he linked, with opposite conclusions to his, would he then trust them? He ignored the question despite emploring him for an answer many times.

In the end I think he got banned for trolling or quotemining or something like that. No brain left in his skull, religion has made an unthinking propaganda machine out of him. No curiosity, skepticism or independent thought is left. He simply cannot be reached. Few things have made me as sad as to witness that level of absentmindedness. And for what? Meaningless bullshit of no value or consequence. A young man is sitting out there without a thought in his head, no will to pursue questions or assess his views. No doubts or wonder. Just unflinching, blind, maddening faith. It's just god-god-god-god-god... all the way down.
That man is truly wasting away his life.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#16  Postby Lowpro » Jun 23, 2013 9:36 pm

You should see him arguing with Shriners and Masons.
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#17  Postby Shrunk » Jul 05, 2013 2:35 pm

More lulz!

Casey Luskin responds to Matzke's review, starting with a nice bit of slander: He accuses Matzke of not even having read the book before writing the review, quoting a review from one of his (Luskin's) IDiot buddies who says it took him a whole two weeks to get thru Meyer's book, such a weighty and profund tome it is. Matzke, OTOH, plowed thru the book and wrote the review in less than three days. Well, it must be admitted that is an impressive achievement, so it is perhaps understandable that an intellectual munchkin like Luskin will find it well nigh miraculous.

But that's what Matzke did, and now he takes Luskin's response apart w/ the same devastatingly meticulous detail he used in the original review:

http://pandasthumb.org/archives/2013/06 ... .html#more
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#18  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 06, 2013 4:11 am

This, of course, would be the "absurd level of detail" Dembski said ID didn't need ... :mrgreen:
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Re: In which Nick Matzke once again utterly annihilates ID

#19  Postby willhud9 » Jul 06, 2013 6:57 pm

Strange. I just wrote a reply to a friend on facebook about creationism in which he challenged me: The problem with the missing links you claim is that they are still missing...Otherwise, they would be called the found links! When you can disprove the law of entropy, explain the Cambrian Explosion, and explain why Darwin himself explained how his "theory" could bust I might entertain this thought process. In the meantime I will buy the following: intelligent design, intelligent creation, and micro-evolution (meaning limited to within the species).

The law of entropy? You mean the second law of thermodynamics then what is there to disprove. The second law is in relation to a closed system. In a closed system, the amount of potential energy decreases while the potential entropy increases until equilibrium is met. But in an open system, such as Earth, where there is a constant source of energy via that giant, burning orb in the center of our solar system, energy is always being provided for the planet. Earth is not an isolated system.

As for the Cambrian Explosion: Prior to the Cambrian we have fossil records of organisms. The conditions during the Earth around 570 million years ago were perfect for organisms to thrive. The term explosion suggests a sudden event, but that's not technically true as there was approximately 50 million years of evolution occurring during the time period. In that period, as you can see with what you dubbed microevolution, changes over time add up. Populations of organisms diversify, and you get a wide variety of life. All the Cambrian explosion was was an evolutionary period in which many of the major Phyla developed, most of them worms, arthropods, and jellyfish, all aquatic lifeforms and simple organisms slowly evolving via natural selection.

Darwin did not know genetics nor about DNA. If he would have communicated with Gregor Mendel, in Germany, he would have figured about inheritance and could have contributed more to this theory, but such is history. Therefore Darwin could not explain the hows of his process. He knew evolution via natural selection was occuring and he could provide evidence for it, as he did in his books: Origin of Species and Descent of Man, but could not explain the technicalities. With the discovery of genetics we can affirm Darwin's theory of evolution.

The problem with intelligent design is it suggests that life looks intelligently designed. It creates a God of Gaps and all it takes is for something to be demonstrated not being made with design, or poor design in fact, as has been the case, to really make God, whom is a creator God, look...not perfect. For example, in human males we develop nipples in the womb. Nipples are not necessary for males and have not been in recorded history. The reason why males have nipples is because in the womb we all develop as females, before the activation of the y chromosome in the male embryo causes the development of genitalia and testosterone. Another example is again in a male body, we have tubes called vas deferens which are important for ejaculation as they transport sperm from the testes. However, the tube itself goes up over the urether tubes and comes back down towards the penis. Thus in humans taking a course which wastes energy. It is inefficient design. But it makes sense in light of evolutionary history, where the testes of fish are indeed inside the organism. As the testes dropped in the evolution of animals until humans we see the conservation of energy in that the vas deferens is simply extended instead of created all anew, as you would expect if it were truly designed.

Micro-evolution is nothing more than evolution. For example, I mentioned ring species. The phenomena of ring species shatters that concept of micro-evolution, macro-evolution. A group of amphibians in the western US are split into two different populations due to a flood. Group A is the parent group, but group one and two are a result of the flood. Group one can breed with group a, group two can breed with group a, and group one and two can breed with each other still. Same species, yes? Group one and two migrate and group three and four are generated. Same thing. Group three can breed with one and A, group four can breed with two and A, and group three and four can breed with each other. Same species still? But wait. It happens one more time. Group three and four migrate and form groups five and six. Group 5 can breed with 3, 1, and A. Group 6 can breed with 4, 2, and A. But Groups 5 and 6 can no longer breed with each other. Are they then the same species? Technically yes, but they no longer can breed with each other. It is when that happens, than genetic diversity begins. This all happens within a few years. Imagine adding millions of years to that. You get species adding genetic differences and slowly change. That is all evolution is: change in organisms over time. Micro-evolution and macro-evolution are the same thing, just one is on a much grander scale.

Was my reply.

To which was his reply:

If you can believe we evolved from amino acids and the universe is getting more organized as we speak, I think you need to read a little less. I go back to my original simple statement. Missing links are exactly that...missing. if geniuses researching the fossil records can't find them, then you have a quandry in your theory which is why it is theory and not fact. I will stick with my belief and faith. Thanks.

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