More JW quote-mines

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

Moderators: kiore, Blip, The_Metatron

More JW quote-mines

#1  Postby stijndeloose » Jul 25, 2010 10:31 am

Skimming through this article on JWs' official website, I just remembered why I hate their publications. Ignoring the flawed arguments and misrepresentations that it is filled with for a second, I just decided to look up a couple of their quotes in their original context.

So here they are.

W,B&TS, Human - Who are we? wrote:The historian H. G. Wells noted the conclusions that many reached after Charles Darwin's Origin of Species was published in 1859.

"A real de-moralization ensued. . . . There was a real loss of faith after 1859. . . . Prevalent peoples at the close of the nineteenth century believed that they prevailed by virtue of the Struggle for Existence, in which the strong and cunning get the better of the weak and confiding. . . . Man, they decided, is a social animal like the Indian hunting dog. . . . It seemed right to them that the big dogs of the human pack should bully and subdue."


H.G. Wells, The Outline of Histroy, Volume 2, p503 wrote:In all ages there have been skeptics in Christendom. The Emperor Frederick II was certainly a skeptic; in the eighteenth century Gibbon and Voltaire were openly anti-Christian, and their writings influenced a number of scattered readers. But these were exceptional people. Now the whole of Christendom became, as a whole, skeptical. This new controversy touched everybody who read a book or heard intelligent conversation. A new generation of young people grew up, and they
found the defenders of Christianity in an evil temper, fighting their cause without dignity or fairness. It was the orthodox theology that the new scientific advances had compromised, but the angry theologians declared it was religion.

To the young it seemed as if, indeed, there had been a conflict of science and religion, and that in that conflict science had won. The immediate effect of this great dispute upon the ideas and methods of people in the prosperous and influential classes throughout the Westernized world was very detrimental indeed. The new biological science was bringing nothing constructive as yet to replace the old moral stand-bys. A real de-moralization ensued.

There was a real loss of faith after 1859. Towards the close of the nineteenth century a crude misunderstanding of Darwinism had become the fundamental mindstuff of great masses of the "educated" everywhere. Prevalent peoples at the close of the nineteenth century believed that they prevailed by the virtue of the Struggle for Existence, in which the strong and cunning get the better of the weak and confiding. And they believed further that they had to be strong, energetic,
ruthless, "practical," egotistical, because God was dead, and had always, it seemed, been dead - which was going altogether further than the new scientific knowledge justified.

They soon got beyond the first crude popular misconception of Darwinism, the idea that every man is for himself alone. But they stuck at the next level. Man, they decided, is a social animal like the hunting dog. He is much more than a dog -- but this they did not see. And just as in a pack it is necessary to bully and subdue the younger and weaker for the general good, so it seemed right to them that the big dogs of the human pack should bully and subdue. Hence a new scorn for the
ideas of democracy that had ruled the earlier nineteenth century, and a revived admiration for the overbearing and the cruel.


Original available online here.

W,B&TS, Human - Who are we? wrote:Says Richard Leakey: "Darwin's version of the manner of our evolution dominated the science of anthropology up until a few years ago, and it turned out to be wrong."


R.Leakey, The Origin of Humankind, p. 1 wrote:In 1859, in his Origin of Species, Darwin carefully avoided extrapolating the implications of evolution to humans. A guarded sentence was added in later editions: "Light will be thrown on the origin of man and his history." He elaborated on this short sentence in a subsequent book, The Descent of Man, published in 1871. Addressing what was still a sensitive subject, he effectively erected two pillars in the theoretical structure of anthropology. The first had to do with where humans first evolved (few believed him initially, but he was correct), and the second concerned the manner or form of that evolution. Darwin's version of the manner of our evolution dominated the science of anthropology up until a few years ago, and it turned out to be wrong.


Original available here, though you'd have to read the whole chapter to see why it's a quote-mine, I suppose.

W,B&TS, Human - Who are we? wrote:A prominent proponent of the evolution theory in the 19th century, Thomas H. Huxley, wrote: "No one is more strongly convinced than I am of the vastness of the gulf between . . . man and the brutes . . . , for he alone possesses the marvelous endowment of intelligible and rational speech [and] . . . stands raised upon it as on a mountain top, far above the level of his humble fellows."


T. H. Huxley, Man's Place in Nature, p. 199 wrote:I have endeavoured to show that no absolute structural lin of demarcation, wider than that between the animals which immediately succeed us in the scale, can be drawn between the animal world and ourselves; and I may add the expression of my belief that the attempt to draw a psychical distinction is equally futile, and that even the highest faculties of feeling and of intellect begin to germinate in lower forms of life. At the same time, no one is more strongly convinced than I am of the vastness of the gulf between civilized man and the brutes; or is more certain that whether from them or not, he is assuredly not of them. No one is less disposed to think lightly of the present dignity, or despairingly of the future hopes, of the only consciously intelligent denizen of this world."


Quoted here

W,B&TS, Human - Who are we? wrote:Many evolutionists, according to Elaine Morgan, "have lost confidence in the answers they thought they knew thirty years ago."


Elaine Morgan, The Scars of Evolution", p. 4 wrote:The question of why our bodies are hairless used to be discussed at some lenght, but now thee is a growing tendency to avoid all mention of it. The writers have lost confidence in the answers they thought they knew thirty years ago, and naturally in addressing the layman they are not anxious to shine a spotlight on problems which have not been solved.


Available online here. Morgan's hardly an authority on evolution, but they manage to quote-mine even her. :rolleyes:

IOW: :evil:
Image
Fallible wrote:Don't bacon picnic.
User avatar
stijndeloose
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Stdlnjo
Posts: 18554
Age: 44
Male

Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#2  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 25, 2010 2:50 pm

You mean that they're lying for a doctrine?

In other news, water is wet.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22636
Age: 62
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#3  Postby Largenton » Jul 25, 2010 2:56 pm

I remember having fun with quote mining...

Quote mining Ray Comfort

I actually understand why they do it too. It's hilarous...
User avatar
Largenton
 
Posts: 84

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#4  Postby stijndeloose » Jul 25, 2010 3:14 pm

Calilasseia wrote:You mean that they're lying for a doctrine?

In other news, water is wet.


:lol: Yeah...
Image
Fallible wrote:Don't bacon picnic.
User avatar
stijndeloose
Banned User
THREAD STARTER
 
Name: Stdlnjo
Posts: 18554
Age: 44
Male

Belgium (be)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#5  Postby IndigoReader » Jul 29, 2010 6:31 am

Funny, Wells also said this:

'[...] the man who can deny the operation of the process of natural selection upon life since its beginning must be either ignorant of the elementary facts of life or incapable of ordinary thought.'

Once I opened an Awake! and listed ever fallacy and error in an article about the brain being evidence of Jehovah. I littered the margins of the whole page only addressing a fraction of the content of one page.

A Bethelite speaking at the latest district convention invoked John Locke; it is hardly worth documenting these things except for comedy. If one wanted to frame a polemic against the sect it could be done based on almost any random Watchtower publication.
IndigoReader
 
Name: Dylan
Posts: 8

Country: United States
United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#6  Postby Calilasseia » Jul 29, 2010 1:25 pm

Actually, the situation is even more dire than this.

This thread over at RDF is a case in point, which was launched by someone who was eventually, after much cajoling, persuaded to reveal that he was a JW. In that thread, he was asked to provide hard evidence for creationist blind assertions, and his response consisted of nothing more than copy-pasting Watchtower tracts, as if these somehow constituted the last word in knowledge. Of course, JWs are required to operate like this, because the people at the top of the command structure dictate that they do so. They are required to conform to every last punctuation and diacritical mark of doctrine, regardless of how absurd, wrong, duplicitous or outright insane that doctrine is.

Indeed, there's a highly illuminating YouTube video clip covering this. The clip itself is this one:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4z0lX1l3h4[/youtube]

Now this video clip is a bit of an anti-climax at the end, because it was compiled by another supernaturalist, who ended the video clip with miasmatic and syrupy platitudes about the need for his magic man, but if one ignores that particular failing, the exposition of JW mind control at work as expounded in The Watchtower is chilling to behold.

But then, I am minded to note that their publication is aptly named ... because where does one find watchtowers in real life? Guarding the perimeters of concentration camps amongst other places. And the doctrine espoused by the JW senior command, and enforced ruthlessly by them, is nothing more than a concentration camp for the mind.
Signature temporarily on hold until I can find a reliable image host ...
User avatar
Calilasseia
RS Donator
 
Posts: 22636
Age: 62
Male

Country: England
United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#7  Postby Atheistoclast » Jul 29, 2010 2:33 pm

Calilasseia wrote:You mean that they're lying for a doctrine?

In other news, water is wet.


There is no bigger hoax and lie than naturalistic molecules-to-man evolutionism.
Nothing in biology makes sense when you include evolution.
User avatar
Atheistoclast
Banned User
 
Name: Joe
Posts: 1709

Country: UK
Iran (ir)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#8  Postby rJD » Jul 29, 2010 3:02 pm

Atheistoclast wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:You mean that they're lying for a doctrine?

In other news, water is wet.


There is no bigger hoax and lie than naturalistic molecules-to-man evolutionism.

You've just been presented with incontrovertable evidence of creationists deliberately and mendaciously lying for their faith, and this is your response? Your inability to provide a counter to this exposing of creationist lying, nor in fact any actual evidence for your own assertions, is noted.
I was "jd" in RDF, and am still in Rationalia.com

"Wooberish" - a neologism for woo expressed in gibberish, spread the "meme".

Image
User avatar
rJD
RS Donator
 
Name: John
Posts: 2934
Male

Country: God's Own Country
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#9  Postby Atheistoclast » Jul 29, 2010 3:41 pm

If you present some evidence that molecules can worm their way up to become multicellular organisms, there would be no controversy. You cannot, so don't state things which aren't true.
Nothing in biology makes sense when you include evolution.
User avatar
Atheistoclast
Banned User
 
Name: Joe
Posts: 1709

Country: UK
Iran (ir)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#10  Postby rJD » Jul 29, 2010 3:58 pm

Atheistoclast wrote:If you present some evidence that molecules can worm their way up to become multicellular organisms, there would be no controversy.

Apart from the crude and simplistic misrepresentation that molecules have intent, there is plenty of evidence that all life on earth today is related through common descent. You have been presented with it and yet you, and people like you, refuse to accept it due solely to attachment to an ancient myth of origins which patently fails to match reality, so your claim that "there would be no controversy" is plain wrong.

You cannot, so don't state things which aren't true.

I am not a biologist but I understand the basics of biology and I understand peer review. I am also aware of, but don't really understand, the total inability of a subset of theists to adjust their worldview to even remotely accord with reality.

And you have still not addressed the point of the OP, which was the exposure of deliberate and malicious misrepresentation in support of dogma.
I was "jd" in RDF, and am still in Rationalia.com

"Wooberish" - a neologism for woo expressed in gibberish, spread the "meme".

Image
User avatar
rJD
RS Donator
 
Name: John
Posts: 2934
Male

Country: God's Own Country
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#11  Postby Atheistoclast » Jul 29, 2010 4:03 pm

If you insist the base chemicals can evolve into human beings, through the laws of Nature alone, then you need to present some evidence...and have your head examined as well.
Nothing in biology makes sense when you include evolution.
User avatar
Atheistoclast
Banned User
 
Name: Joe
Posts: 1709

Country: UK
Iran (ir)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#12  Postby MattHunX » Jul 29, 2010 4:04 pm

This is something I've heard about in my thread for ex-es. An ex-JW on the old forum told me how the texts they received and those they were taught from were completely out of context, not just the religious ones, but if I remember correctly, so were other articles. Filtered. He was shocked when he went to look for answers and done some research on his own.
User avatar
MattHunX
 
Posts: 10947

Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#13  Postby MattHunX » Jul 29, 2010 4:04 pm

Atheistoclast wrote:If you insist the base chemicals can evolve into human beings, through the laws of Nature alone, then you need to present some evidence...and have your head examined as well.


Not you again! Weren't you revealed as a poe not too long ago? :eh:
User avatar
MattHunX
 
Posts: 10947

Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#14  Postby rJD » Jul 29, 2010 4:12 pm

Atheistoclast wrote:If you insist the base chemicals can evolve into human beings, through the laws of Nature alone, then you need to present some evidence...and have your head examined as well.

Oh, how surprising! The abiogenisis = evolution lie again. Why am I not surprised to see that.

We do not require abiogenesis to be explained in order for the evidence of evolution through natural selection to be overwhelming. Rather the other way round. Since we have such abundant evidence of evolution right back to a common ancestor of every living organism on Earth by natural means alone, it is a reasonable assumption that the change from non-organic to primitive organic was by a similarly naturalistic means. Scientists, and anybody remotely rational and informed, understand that we may never know the exact process of how this happened since it occurred billions of years ago and there may be no evidence remaining to show the exact processes involved but all scientists have to do is show a plausible mechanism and your last gap in the biological record for god to hide in will be stripped away.

Guess what? They're already testing hypotheses and making breakthroughs.
I was "jd" in RDF, and am still in Rationalia.com

"Wooberish" - a neologism for woo expressed in gibberish, spread the "meme".

Image
User avatar
rJD
RS Donator
 
Name: John
Posts: 2934
Male

Country: God's Own Country
European Union (eur)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#15  Postby dionysus » Jul 29, 2010 4:38 pm

MattHunX wrote:
Atheistoclast wrote:If you insist the base chemicals can evolve into human beings, through the laws of Nature alone, then you need to present some evidence...and have your head examined as well.


Not you again! Weren't you revealed as a poe not too long ago? :eh:


Yes he was. And I don't know who he's trying to fool here but it's not working. Or maybe he just likes to be a contrarian.
User avatar
dionysus
 
Name: Lukasz
Posts: 417
Age: 39
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#16  Postby Atheistoclast » Jul 29, 2010 7:57 pm

I am the real deal. I am a progressive creationist.
Nothing in biology makes sense when you include evolution.
User avatar
Atheistoclast
Banned User
 
Name: Joe
Posts: 1709

Country: UK
Iran (ir)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#17  Postby Tbickle » Jul 29, 2010 8:01 pm

Atheistoclast wrote:I am the real deal. I am a progressive creationist.


There's nothing progressive about creationism, it's the same premise that has existed for hundreds or thousands of years.
"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes a precedent that will reach to himself."
-Thomas Paine
User avatar
Tbickle
 
Posts: 3919

Holy See (Vatican City State) (va)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#18  Postby dionysus » Jul 29, 2010 9:09 pm

Atheistoclast wrote:I am the real deal. I am a progressive creationist.


No, you're not. You outed yourself on this very forum. Many people can attest to this. But don't worry, being a PoE doesn't mean we won't play along. In fact, I've been doing so ever since you started posting again.
User avatar
dionysus
 
Name: Lukasz
Posts: 417
Age: 39
Male

United States (us)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#19  Postby tsninjapirate » Aug 01, 2010 5:54 pm

Atheistoclast wrote:If you present some evidence that molecules can worm their way up to become multicellular organisms, there would be no controversy. You cannot, so don't state things which aren't true.


Umm... multicellular organisms are MADE of molecules. I think that alone proves that there is no duality between "molecules" (I'm assuming you mean inanimate molecules, but you've not made that clear) and "living molecules" (made from the same kind of atoms as non-living molecules, just they are performing specific chemical reactions we call "biochemistry").
"I find the prospect of being conscious for an unending eternity quite frankly appalling. When my time comes, let me sleep." Paul Churchland http://tsninjapirate.weebly.com/
User avatar
tsninjapirate
 
Posts: 93

United Kingdom (uk)
Print view this post

Re: More JW quote-mines

#20  Postby Fallible » Aug 01, 2010 8:07 pm


!
MODNOTE
Atheistoclast, the following comment made by you is a personal attack against another member:

If you insist the base chemicals can evolve into human beings, through the laws of Nature alone, then you need to present some evidence...and have your head examined as well.


The FUA states:

You may challenge and criticise posts robustly but personal attacks on other members are not permitted.


Along with this post,

There is no bigger hoax and lie than naturalistic molecules-to-man evolutionism.


it is also trolling. The FUA states:


You may not:

* Troll i.e. posting disruptive and/or inflammatory content.


For these reasons, you are receiving a second warning, for a personal attack and trolling.

***

This is also a general reminder to all participants to please stay on-topic. Thank you.
She battled through in every kind of tribulation,
She revelled in adventure and imagination.
She never listened to no hater, liar,
Breaking boundaries and chasing fire.
Oh, my my! Oh my, she flies!
User avatar
Fallible
RS Donator
 
Name: Alice Pooper
Posts: 51607
Age: 51
Female

Country: Engerland na na
Canada (ca)
Print view this post


Return to Creationism

Who is online

Users viewing this topic: No registered users and 1 guest

cron