Radionuclide dating

An "Appearance of Age" question

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: Radionuclide dating

#21  Postby trubble76 » Jan 11, 2013 9:49 am

questioner121 wrote:
Calilasseia wrote:
questioner121 wrote:I simply meant that you got to take your scientific theories with a pinch of salt, for theories on evolution and radionuclide dating a bucket of salt would be more apt.


As opposed to treating the blind assertions of scientifically ignorant mythological scribblings as fact?

Once again, when one has evidence to support relevant postulates, and evolutionary theory has evidence by the supertanker load, we're dealing with something a little more substantial than made up shit. Unlike 3,000 year old mythology. Coloured sticks, anyone?


I looked up the coloured sticks thing in the bible. It's the first time I read it. Very intriguing. I do find it believable though. I think whoever wrote the bible in them days will have been surprised to write that down. I'm sure a few must have gone and tried it. I would also ask myself why would anyone write such a thing? They must have know it was really strange. Why not write something a bit more believable or maybe even grander?


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Re: Radionuclide dating

#22  Postby questioner121 » Jan 11, 2013 10:25 am

DarthHelmet86 wrote:No it isn't believable, if it was we could easily make any animal we want any colour we want without having to go through all that breeding and artificial selection.

They wrote it because they had no damn clue why or how the animals were coming out certain colours. They found something that they thought could be the answer and then decreed it to be so. The same with people saying Zeuz threw lightning down from mount Olympus or the tooth fairy leaving a dollar under your pillow when you left a tooth there.



It's believable if you believe in a Creator. I don't think they wrote that because of a lack of scientific knowledge. It only happened for a short period of time, it wasn't widespread. If it was widespread and it happened today it would be called 'natural'. Unfortunately you can't have a miracle occur daily cos if it did then it would simply be ordinary.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#23  Postby trubble76 » Jan 11, 2013 10:30 am

questioner121 wrote:
DarthHelmet86 wrote:No it isn't believable, if it was we could easily make any animal we want any colour we want without having to go through all that breeding and artificial selection.

They wrote it because they had no damn clue why or how the animals were coming out certain colours. They found something that they thought could be the answer and then decreed it to be so. The same with people saying Zeuz threw lightning down from mount Olympus or the tooth fairy leaving a dollar under your pillow when you left a tooth there.



It's believable if you believe in a Creator. I don't think they wrote that because of a lack of scientific knowledge. It only happened for a short period of time, it wasn't widespread. If it was widespread and it happened today it would be called 'natural'. Unfortunately you can't have a miracle occur daily cos if it did then it would simply be ordinary.


You believe a creator would change the rules about procreation so that coloured sticks become temporarily part of the process? Why use coloured sticks at all? Don't you think it sounds a lot more like it was just a stupid lie rather than insight into the mind of the single greatest power in the universe?
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#24  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 11, 2013 10:31 am

questioner121 wrote:
DarthHelmet86 wrote:No it isn't believable, if it was we could easily make any animal we want any colour we want without having to go through all that breeding and artificial selection.

They wrote it because they had no damn clue why or how the animals were coming out certain colours. They found something that they thought could be the answer and then decreed it to be so. The same with people saying Zeuz threw lightning down from mount Olympus or the tooth fairy leaving a dollar under your pillow when you left a tooth there.



It's believable if you believe in a Creator. I don't think they wrote that because of a lack of scientific knowledge. It only happened for a short period of time, it wasn't widespread. If it was widespread and it happened today it would be called 'natural'. Unfortunately you can't have a miracle occur daily cos if it did then it would simply be ordinary.



There you go: you proved my point exactly.

ANYTHING is believable if you sacrifice your intellect on the altar of magical credulity.

You just gave up ALL right to be taken seriously.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#25  Postby DarthHelmet86 » Jan 11, 2013 10:33 am

questioner121 wrote:
DarthHelmet86 wrote:No it isn't believable, if it was we could easily make any animal we want any colour we want without having to go through all that breeding and artificial selection.

They wrote it because they had no damn clue why or how the animals were coming out certain colours. They found something that they thought could be the answer and then decreed it to be so. The same with people saying Zeuz threw lightning down from mount Olympus or the tooth fairy leaving a dollar under your pillow when you left a tooth there.



It's believable if you believe in a Creator. I don't think they wrote that because of a lack of scientific knowledge. It only happened for a short period of time, it wasn't widespread. If it was widespread and it happened today it would be called 'natural'. Unfortunately you can't have a miracle occur daily cos if it did then it would simply be ordinary.


What a load of bollocks that post is. A magic man did it, but now he can't but totally was a magic man. And not any magic man but the one you believe in. Show me some evidence that it ever happened, show me evidence that using coloured sticks you could make animals be born a certain colour. It is far more believable that it was people who didn't know about genetics making a mistake and then proclaiming it as true. And guess what since then we have learned how animals become coloured and how we can artificially force them to be born in different colours.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#26  Postby questioner121 » Jan 11, 2013 10:34 am

Spearthrower wrote:
questioner121 wrote:
DarthHelmet86 wrote:No it isn't believable, if it was we could easily make any animal we want any colour we want without having to go through all that breeding and artificial selection.

They wrote it because they had no damn clue why or how the animals were coming out certain colours. They found something that they thought could be the answer and then decreed it to be so. The same with people saying Zeuz threw lightning down from mount Olympus or the tooth fairy leaving a dollar under your pillow when you left a tooth there.



It's believable if you believe in a Creator. I don't think they wrote that because of a lack of scientific knowledge. It only happened for a short period of time, it wasn't widespread. If it was widespread and it happened today it would be called 'natural'. Unfortunately you can't have a miracle occur daily cos if it did then it would simply be ordinary.



There you go: you proved my point exactly.

ANYTHING is believable if you sacrifice your intellect on the altar of magical credulity.

You just gave up ALL right to be taken seriously.


Spearthrower, just to let you know I'm ignoring all your comments. I asked you kindly to not use profane language but you feel it's OK. Peace.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#27  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 11, 2013 10:42 am

questioner121 wrote:
Spearthrower wrote:
questioner121 wrote:
DarthHelmet86 wrote:No it isn't believable, if it was we could easily make any animal we want any colour we want without having to go through all that breeding and artificial selection.

They wrote it because they had no damn clue why or how the animals were coming out certain colours. They found something that they thought could be the answer and then decreed it to be so. The same with people saying Zeuz threw lightning down from mount Olympus or the tooth fairy leaving a dollar under your pillow when you left a tooth there.



It's believable if you believe in a Creator. I don't think they wrote that because of a lack of scientific knowledge. It only happened for a short period of time, it wasn't widespread. If it was widespread and it happened today it would be called 'natural'. Unfortunately you can't have a miracle occur daily cos if it did then it would simply be ordinary.



There you go: you proved my point exactly.

ANYTHING is believable if you sacrifice your intellect on the altar of magical credulity.

You just gave up ALL right to be taken seriously.


Spearthrower, just to let you know I'm ignoring all your comments. I asked you kindly to not use profane language but you feel it's OK. Peace.



And I already told you that you that continuously fucking lying is far more reprehensible than the use of words that you personally don't think are permissable.

You've lost because you show that your basis is entirely emotional, and rational consideration is not what you're here for.

You show that you demand people jump through your fucking contrived hoops, but you can't bring the most basic respect to bear for other people.

You show that your backwards belief system relies on lies, deception and ignorance to perpetuate itself.

I don't care if you fucking reply to me Questioner - you don't have the right to reply to me as far as I am concerned because all you do is fucking lie.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#28  Postby Just A Theory » Jan 11, 2013 1:32 pm

questioner121 wrote:
It's believable if you believe in a Creator. I don't think they wrote that because of a lack of scientific knowledge. It only happened for a short period of time, it wasn't widespread. If it was widespread and it happened today it would be called 'natural'. Unfortunately you can't have a miracle occur daily cos if it did then it would simply be ordinary.


Anything is believable if you believe in a supernatural entity that has the capability to do anything. However, that's not a compelling argument because it could encompass literally any position.

Of more interest is Matthew 24:34 which asserts that this generation shall by no means pass away before the second coming of the lord. Now, by my reckoning it's been at least a couple of thousand years, where are the very old people?
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#29  Postby questioner121 » Jan 11, 2013 1:44 pm

Just A Theory wrote:
questioner121 wrote:
It's believable if you believe in a Creator. I don't think they wrote that because of a lack of scientific knowledge. It only happened for a short period of time, it wasn't widespread. If it was widespread and it happened today it would be called 'natural'. Unfortunately you can't have a miracle occur daily cos if it did then it would simply be ordinary.


Anything is believable if you believe in a supernatural entity that has the capability to do anything. However, that's not a compelling argument because it could encompass literally any position.

Of more interest is Matthew 24:34 which asserts that this generation shall by no means pass away before the second coming of the lord. Now, by my reckoning it's been at least a couple of thousand years, where are the very old people?


I agree.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#30  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 11, 2013 2:07 pm

An explanation that can explain anything, even contradictory positions, is no explanation at all.

It's the sacrifice of the intellect for the myth.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#31  Postby Sityl » Jan 11, 2013 2:22 pm

It's an intellectually dishonest claim to say that because science's understanding of the universe is improving, you can pretend that any bollocks could be true.

The earth was once thought to be flat, then it was thought to be a sphere, then it was realized that it's semi-spherical, etc, but in no way does this make it okay to pretend that "the earth is a cube" is suddenly a valid possibility just because science has helped improve our understanding over time.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#32  Postby questioner121 » Jan 11, 2013 4:18 pm

Sityl wrote:It's an intellectually dishonest claim to say that because science's understanding of the universe is improving, you can pretend that any bollocks could be true.

The earth was once thought to be flat, then it was thought to be a sphere, then it was realized that it's semi-spherical, etc, but in no way does this make it okay to pretend that "the earth is a cube" is suddenly a valid possibility just because science has helped improve our understanding over time.



One day it will improve to show that everything was created. So we can carry on believing.

I would say that it's also ridiculous to have the position that just because science explains things you can derive silly statements which say that life was started by chance. Science can't prove things which aren't observable.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#33  Postby Sityl » Jan 11, 2013 4:30 pm

questioner121 wrote:
Sityl wrote:It's an intellectually dishonest claim to say that because science's understanding of the universe is improving, you can pretend that any bollocks could be true.

The earth was once thought to be flat, then it was thought to be a sphere, then it was realized that it's semi-spherical, etc, but in no way does this make it okay to pretend that "the earth is a cube" is suddenly a valid possibility just because science has helped improve our understanding over time.



One day it will improve to show that everything was created. So we can carry on believing.

I would say that it's also ridiculous to have the position that just because science explains things you can derive silly statements which say that life was started by chance. Science can't prove things which aren't observable.


You can't make that claim. It's like saying "One day our understanding of the shape of the Earth will improve to show that it's a cube." It's pulled completely out of your mind without anything to support it, and the overwhelming mountain of evidence showing it to be wrong.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#34  Postby questioner121 » Jan 11, 2013 4:39 pm

Sityl wrote:
questioner121 wrote:
Sityl wrote:It's an intellectually dishonest claim to say that because science's understanding of the universe is improving, you can pretend that any bollocks could be true.

The earth was once thought to be flat, then it was thought to be a sphere, then it was realized that it's semi-spherical, etc, but in no way does this make it okay to pretend that "the earth is a cube" is suddenly a valid possibility just because science has helped improve our understanding over time.



One day it will improve to show that everything was created. So we can carry on believing.

I would say that it's also ridiculous to have the position that just because science explains things you can derive silly statements which say that life was started by chance. Science can't prove things which aren't observable.


You can't make that claim. It's like saying "One day our understanding of the shape of the Earth will improve to show that it's a cube." It's pulled completely out of your mind without anything to support it, and the overwhelming mountain of evidence showing it to be wrong.


The evidence we have today does not prove that life wasn't created. It just explains observations on living organisms. There is absolutely no way of going back in time to observe creation of the very first living organisms. Simple.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#35  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 11, 2013 5:04 pm

questioner121 wrote:
Sityl wrote:It's an intellectually dishonest claim to say that because science's understanding of the universe is improving, you can pretend that any bollocks could be true.

The earth was once thought to be flat, then it was thought to be a sphere, then it was realized that it's semi-spherical, etc, but in no way does this make it okay to pretend that "the earth is a cube" is suddenly a valid possibility just because science has helped improve our understanding over time.



One day it will improve to show that everything was created. So we can carry on believing.


God your arguments are so feeble Questioner.

One day you will have evidence for your position?

Great. Do make sure to come back when that evidence is actually ... you know... existent... rather than a figment of your imagination conjured up to make you feel better about the fact that your position requires you to be am anti-scientific reality denier.


questioner121 wrote:I would say that it's also ridiculous to have the position that just because science explains things you can derive silly statements which say that life was started by chance. Science can't prove things which aren't observable.


You are, once again, making the classic argument from ignorance. Basically, you haven't bothered to look into any of the evidence, so the evidence doesn't exist in the limited perception of your mind.

Rather than ask people here to supply evidence, you assert that it doesn't exist.

This is like you telling me my mother doesn't exist. You can say it, but I naturally know you are talking shite.

When you keep talking shite, people can't help but notice the pattern.

When you are here promoting Islamic mythology, and you repeatedly need to talk shite and exhibit thorough ignorance of evidence, refusal to actually look at evidence, and your position becomes anti-scientific - you provide a WONDERFUL model for people who aren't quite sure whether Islam is an intellectually tenable position. You show them that it is not possible for an Islamic fundamentalist to maintain their beliefs AND accept science. It's either/or. And every non-crazy person in the world can see the direct benefits of science, and the unquestionable fact that science works.

Thank you for your efforts on our behalf.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#36  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 11, 2013 5:06 pm

questioner121 wrote:
The evidence we have today does not prove that life wasn't created.


Yes it does.


questioner121 wrote: It just explains observations on living organisms.


No, you're wrong.


questioner121 wrote: There is absolutely no way of going back in time to observe creation of the very first living organisms.


That's a really stupid thing to keep saying in public - it shows how anti-intellectual your position is. That's Islam, folks!


questioner121 wrote:Simple.


Simplistic.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#37  Postby Spearthrower » Jan 11, 2013 5:08 pm

Also, we get the fantastic opposing assertions:

1) the evidence we have personally seen and shown Questioner: doesn't exist
2) evidence that doesn't actually exist but would be useful for Questioner if it did: we can't prove it won't one day be found.


I'd love to take Questioner's arguments public. I'd be happy to take this on in the middle of Mecca. They might tear me to pieces afterwards, but not one single person would be able to rationally agree with Questioner and maintain the fiction that the Quran is scientifically literate.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#38  Postby ramseyoptom » Jan 11, 2013 8:54 pm

questioner121 wrote:

Take for example the dual nature of light as a wave or particle. The original theory was that light only had wave properties. This was due to numerous experiments being carried out at the time to prove this. It's only later on that light was found to have both wave and particle properties due to new experiments.

Take for example astronomy. It was through rigorous scientific means that it was determined that the sun orbited the earth with the rest of the planets, they even worked out the orbits of all the planets using their scientific methods. Today the earth orbits the sun (theoretically I may add).



Before criticizing the scientific method, by using examples it is often a good idea to have a knowledge of the history of science, then you will not fall into making mistakes like this, which is either due to bad understanding or bad teaching.

The first major theory of light was by Isaac Newton

In 1704, Newton published "Opticks", in which he expounded his corpuscular theory of light. He considered light to be made up of extremely subtle corpuscles, that ordinary matter was made of grosser corpuscles and speculated that through a kind of alchemical transmutation "Are not gross Bodies and Light convertible into one another, ...and may not Bodies receive much of their Activity from the Particles of Light which enter their Composition?" (Wikipedia)


In other words he thought that light was composed of very small solid particles.

There were several major objections to Newton's Corpuscular Theory, principally one of Newton's own observation, that of Newton's Rings, which he explained by using a similarity to sound waves. It was dealt an apparent death blow by Thomas Young in 180(3) when he used a Wave Theory of Light to explain interference patterns, best illustrated in the two slit experiment, as because of the way the interference patterns could not be explained by the Corpuscular Theory.

However by the end of the 19th century the wave theory of light was causing problems as it did not explain the photoelectric effect (solar panels generate electricity using this effect) and it Albert Einstein who accounted for this effect in 1905 by theorising the existence of quanta of light (photon). And it was this paper which gave rise to the wave-particle duality which is now used. It was this paper for which Einstein won the Nobel Prize and not as is often thought General Relativity.

So theories of light have gone from particles to waves to wave-particles in order to accommodate experiment.

As to the Earth orbiting the Sun only being a theory just have a look at some of the data and images from the Voyager probes and you will find we now have real observational evidence that the Earth orbits the Sun. It's nice when observation proves theory.

If you want to stick to "goddidit" then feel free, just remember that every so often reality has a distressing tendency to stick the finger up at mythological assertions.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#39  Postby questioner121 » Jan 11, 2013 9:07 pm

ramseyoptom wrote:
questioner121 wrote:

Take for example the dual nature of light as a wave or particle. The original theory was that light only had wave properties. This was due to numerous experiments being carried out at the time to prove this. It's only later on that light was found to have both wave and particle properties due to new experiments.

Take for example astronomy. It was through rigorous scientific means that it was determined that the sun orbited the earth with the rest of the planets, they even worked out the orbits of all the planets using their scientific methods. Today the earth orbits the sun (theoretically I may add).



Before criticizing the scientific method, by using examples it is often a good idea to have a knowledge of the history of science, then you will not fall into making mistakes like this, which is either due to bad understanding or bad teaching.

The first major theory of light was by Isaac Newton

In 1704, Newton published "Opticks", in which he expounded his corpuscular theory of light. He considered light to be made up of extremely subtle corpuscles, that ordinary matter was made of grosser corpuscles and speculated that through a kind of alchemical transmutation "Are not gross Bodies and Light convertible into one another, ...and may not Bodies receive much of their Activity from the Particles of Light which enter their Composition?" (Wikipedia)


In other words he thought that light was composed of very small solid particles.

There were several major objections to Newton's Corpuscular Theory, principally one of Newton's own observation, that of Newton's Rings, which he explained by using a similarity to sound waves. It was dealt an apparent death blow by Thomas Young in 180(3) when he used a Wave Theory of Light to explain interference patterns, best illustrated in the two slit experiment, as because of the way the interference patterns could not be explained by the Corpuscular Theory.

However by the end of the 19th century the wave theory of light was causing problems as it did not explain the photoelectric effect (solar panels generate electricity using this effect) and it Albert Einstein who accounted for this effect in 1905 by theorising the existence of quanta of light (photon). And it was this paper which gave rise to the wave-particle duality which is now used. It was this paper for which Einstein won the Nobel Prize and not as is often thought General Relativity.

So theories of light have gone from particles to waves to wave-particles in order to accommodate experiment.

As to the Earth orbiting the Sun only being a theory just have a look at some of the data and images from the Voyager probes and you will find we now have real observational evidence that the Earth orbits the Sun. It's nice when observation proves theory.

If you want to stick to "goddidit" then feel free, just remember that every so often reality has a distressing tendency to stick the finger up at mythological assertions.


I have seen the evidence and I'm not ignoring it. I'm just saying one day new observations may show the sun going around the earth. It doesn't mean that the current evidence is wrong, it's just that it wasn't interpreted correctly. Science isn't wrong, human can be wrong.
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Re: Radionuclide dating

#40  Postby stijndeloose » Jan 11, 2013 9:12 pm

Then I suggest you set out to falsify current theories. Good luck!
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