falconjudge wrote:I tried to talk sense into this sort of argument in creationist forums before. They don't take it well.

Think about the children lurkers, won't somebody please just think about the children lurkers.

Anyway shooting down a drive-by is just good target practice.

^^^ Indeed, a good way of making sure the bomb sights are set correctly.

ScienceTruthReason wrote:http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/08/110809144517.htm

A hypothesis that has had more and more evidence supporting it. This however, is the strongest, or at least one of. I think this can be fully confirmed as a scientific theory now.

I have to thank you for bringing that to my attention. What they are describing is what is shown here washing up on the shoreline of the ocean aquarium model I years ago developed for teachers, to explain that:



Here's the experiment/demonstration:

http://originoflifeaquarium.blogspot.com/

The picture is also my avatar. You inspired me to make a new one to fit in as much of the plasma in the picture as the forum software allows.

Two fly bys.

bilh123 wrote:
Random chance can NOT create order

You think the Universe is ordered ? There are
black holes at the centre of which all the laws of
physics as we know them cease to be. There is dark
matter which invalidates the law of gravitation. There is
dark energy which is a complete mystery. There is the world
of quantum mechanics and classical physics which co exist but yet
are as incompatible as is possible without being completely unworkable
None of which sounds very ordered now does it and that is because it is not
Nature is not always neat and precise. For sometimes it is the complete opposite

surreptitious57 wrote:

bilh123 wrote:
Random chance can NOT create order

You think the Universe is ordered ? There are
black holes at the centre of which all the laws of
physics as we know them cease to be. There is dark
matter which invalidates the law of gravitation. There is
dark energy which is a complete mystery. There is the world
of quantum mechanics and classical physics which co exist but yet
are as incompatible as is possible without being completely unworkable
None of which sounds very ordered now does it and that is because it is not
Nature is not always neat and precise. For sometimes it is the complete opposite

All true. However, bilh123's main problem (besides a decided lack of persistence) is his misunderstanding of the term "random chance." The fact that two hydrogen atoms so frequently combine with a single oxygen atom to form water, to choose just one example, is not just a lucky fluke.

Maybe one hasta be a mathematician to understand it, but abiogenesis is simply geometry. One argument ages ago, and that was it for me. Creationists? Nah. That doesn't have anything to do with anything other than a group of people trying to impose a faulty moral standard. Same shit, different day; in other words. Can't really "prove" anything to a creationist - you can always kill 'em, but that's a little extreme - we are trying to find a different moral standard, after all.

The atheistic position is indefensible. You really have only two choices - either God designed all this or this all happened by random chance - and the mathematical chances of this happening are non-existent.The truth is that it is a mathematical impossibility for order of this complexity to be created by chance. Random chance can NOT create order. Where there is design, there is a designer. The Universe is an incredibly complex design - designed by the Master Designer. God is the only logical explanation for the Universe. The incredible complexity of the Universe proves to rational people the existence of God.


Whether "god" created the universe or not, it still all happened by chance. So you are saying that god set the universe in motion and waited 13 billion years to come back and create us? He took a big gamble assuming that our little star would actually be born and that planets would form and that some other planet would smash into our earth to form the moon. Without the moon we wouldn't be here today. And of course, the conditions would have to be perfect for life to thrive. The odds of all this happening were very slim. So why create this enormous universe and wait all that time if he really only wanted to create us? Why not just create the earth and all life on earth in a little bubble in 7 days -- as described in genesis. That would make much more sense to me.

missy wrote:The atheistic position is indefensible. You really have only two choices - either God designed all this or this all happened by random chance - and the mathematical chances of this happening are non-existent.The truth is that it is a mathematical impossibility for order of this complexity to be created by chance. Random chance can NOT create order. Where there is design, there is a designer. The Universe is an incredibly complex design - designed by the Master Designer. God is the only logical explanation for the Universe. The incredible complexity of the Universe proves to rational people the existence of God.


Whether "god" created the universe or not, it still all happened by chance. So you are saying that god set the universe in motion and waited 13 billion years to come back and create us? He took a big gamble assuming that our little star would actually be born and that planets would form and that some other planet would smash into our earth to form the moon. Without the moon we wouldn't be here today. And of course, the conditions would have to be perfect for life to thrive. The odds of all this happening were very slim. So why create this enormous universe and wait all that time if he really only wanted to create us? Why not just create the earth and all life on earth in a little bubble in 7 days -- as described in genesis. That would make much more sense to me.

Hm, you could read up on the theory of evolution and then give it another try.

You appear to be improperly defining us, and our existence, as a desired end-result of the formation of the Universe. If that were so, it might be proper to assign a high unlikelihood of our formation by "chance".

However, reality doesn't work that way. The Universe is. The odds of us coming along just as we are are 1:1. It happened that way. Now sure, one can go back through time and determine the "odds" that various events would turn out as they did - but that is an improper way to look at statistical happenstance.

Look at it this way - the odds that YOU would be the outcome of your great, great, great, great, great-grandparents (all of them), their various lives, marriages, and outcomes, are minuscule. There are so many ways they could have died before having kids, so many ways they could have avoided even meeting their future spouses, etc - you shouldn't exist at all. But you do, right? It's not because some god was putting his finger in every step of the way so that YOU would exist now (thinking that would be the ultimate hubris, wouldn't it?), but because the various things which happened in the past resulted in you now. The odds are 1:1, not one in billions or trillions - and if YOU hadn't resulted, nobody would be talking now about YOU not being around, would they? I mean, nobody ever talks about my conjoined twin Raphael - because he doesn't exist!

missy wrote:The atheistic position is indefensible. You really have only two choices - either God designed all this or this all happened by random chance - and the mathematical chances of this happening are non-existent. The truth is that it is a mathematical impossibility for order of this complexity to be created by chance.

Says who? How does one go about determining that it is "mathematically impossible?" Can I see your math?

missy wrote:
Random chance can NOT create order. Where there is design, there is a designer.

Why does there have to be a designer?

missy wrote:
The Universe is an incredibly complex design - designed by the Master Designer.

So you say. I don't believe you. There's no proof of it.

missy wrote:
God is the only logical explanation for the Universe. The incredible complexity of the Universe proves to rational people the existence of God.

I'm rational, and I'm not convinced. Do you have something more convincing?

missy wrote:
Whether "god" created the universe or not, it still all happened by chance. So you are saying that god set the universe in motion and waited 13 billion years to come back and create us? He took a big gamble assuming that our little star would actually be born and that planets would form and that some other planet would smash into our earth to form the moon. Without the moon we wouldn't be here today. And of course, the conditions would have to be perfect for life to thrive. The odds of all this happening were very slim.

When you have a universe with a scale that's large enough -- and it's bigger than we can possibly fathom -- improbable events must happen somewhere. Black holes are also improbable, but clearly exist.

missy wrote:
So why create this enormous universe and wait all that time if he really only wanted to create us? Why not just create the earth and all life on earth in a little bubble in 7 days -- as described in genesis. That would make much more sense to me.

So you obviously believe in a god. Who are you to presume to know what is sensible to him?

Eh.. why am I even bothering?

Sorry, new here. I actually meant to quote but copied the first paragraph from another post. This was my response to that quote.

Whether "god" created the universe or not, it still all happened by chance. So you are saying that god set the universe in motion and waited 13 billion years to come back and create us? He took a big gamble assuming that our little star would actually be born and that planets would form and that some other planet would smash into our earth to form the moon. Without the moon we wouldn't be here today. And of course, the conditions would have to be perfect for life to thrive. The odds of all this happening were very slim. So why create this enormous universe and wait all that time if he really only wanted to create us? Why not just create the earth and all life on earth in a little bubble in 7 days -- as described in genesis. That would make much more sense to me.

God likes things to look precarious. Of course, god knew it would all work out as it has. God has exhibited leet skillz in creative determinism deterministic creation.

For the record, I am not a creationist. I was trying to point out how ridiculous it would be for god to create the entire universe, just to get us as the end result. Some creationist believe god created the universe but we are special and the only planet he blessed with life.

Oh dear. It looks like someone hasn't bothered checking the canard list before posting some of them.

Let's take a look at this shall we?

missy wrote:The atheistic position is indefensible.

The only "atheistic position" in existence, from a rigorous standpoint, is a refusal to accept uncritically unsupported supernaturalist assertions. Which is entirely defensible, because refusing to accept assertions uncritically is a central component of proper discourse.

missy wrote:You really have only two choices - either God designed all this or this all happened by random chance

WRONG! And a total caricature of the scientific position, which has nothing to do with atheism. That scientific position being that the universe and its contents are the product of testable natural processes, something every supernaturalist forgets about when erecting the above false dichotomy.

missy wrote: - and the mathematical chances of this happening are non-existent.

Well since scientists don't subscribe to your caricature of their position, these "probability" calculations don't apply. See my above remarks about testable natural processes. Oh, by the way, on what rigorous basis are these "probability" calculations founded? Only every time I delve into this matter with respect to creationist assertions, I find that either [1] the numbers involved are pulled out of their rectal passages, or [2] the foundational assumptions upon which these "probability" calculations are based, include one or more known fallacies.

missy wrote:The truth is that it is a mathematical impossibility for order of this complexity to be created by chance.

Except that once again, scientists don't subscribe to your caricature of their position. They consider that testable natural processes were responsible, a large number of which have been documented in peer reviewed scientific papers.

missy wrote:Random chance can NOT create order.

Testable natural processes can, though. Learn this lesson quickly to spare yourself further embarrassment.

missy wrote:Where there is design, there is a designer.

Oh dear, not this trite supernaturalist shibboleth again. Sigh.

Guess what? There exist scientific papers demonstrating that evolutionary processes can "design" complex entities. I've presented said papers here in the past.

Oh, and while we're at it, do you know what is required in order to make the "design" assertion something other than a blind assertion? Only I've yet to find a supernaturalist who does.

missy wrote:The Universe is an incredibly complex design - designed by the Master Designer. God is the only logical explanation for the Universe.

Ahem. At least two physicists of my acquaintance would like to have a word with you. Allow me to introduce Messrs Steinhardt & Turok. I presented two of their papers here. In those papers, they present an entirely naturalistic hypothesis for the origin of the observable universe, one, moreover, that admits of an empirical test of the validity thereof.

missy wrote:The incredible complexity of the Universe proves to rational people the existence of God.

No it doesn't. As scientists have established in something like a million peer reviewed papers, testable natural processes are sufficient to account for vast classes of real world observational phenomena. The number of papers in existence that say "er, we need a magic entity to account for this" is precisely zero.

missy wrote:Whether "god" created the universe or not, it still all happened by chance. So you are saying that god set the universe in motion and waited 13 billion years to come back and create us? He took a big gamble assuming that our little star would actually be born and that planets would form and that some other planet would smash into our earth to form the moon. Without the moon we wouldn't be here today. And of course, the conditions would have to be perfect for life to thrive. The odds of all this happening were very slim. So why create this enormous universe and wait all that time if he really only wanted to create us? Why not just create the earth and all life on earth in a little bubble in 7 days -- as described in genesis. That would make much more sense to me.

Ahem. Genesis erects assertions that are known to be plain, flat, wrong. The hard empirical evidence says that your book of myths is wrong. The observable universe IS 13.6 billion years old, because ALL the evidence says so. I suggest you learn about some of it.

Ok before you jump all over someone, please read all my previous posts. I accidentaly copied someone else's post instead of quoting it. So shoot me. These are my posts:

Whether "god" created the universe or not, it still all happened by chance. So you are saying that god set the universe in motion and waited 13 billion years to come back and create us? He took a big gamble assuming that our little star would actually be born and that planets would form and that some other planet would smash into our earth to form the moon. Without the moon we wouldn't be here today. And of course, the conditions would have to be perfect for life to thrive. The odds of all this happening were very slim. So why create this enormous universe and wait all that time if he really only wanted to create us? Why not just create the earth and all life on earth in a little bubble in 7 days -- as described in genesis. That would make much more sense to me.

For the record, I am not a creationist. I was trying to point out how ridiculous it would be for god to create the entire universe, just to get us as the end result. Some creationist believe god created the universe but we are special and the only planet he blessed with life.

missy wrote:Ok before you jump all over someone, please read all my previous posts. I accidentaly copied someone else's post instead of quoting it. So shoot me. These are my posts:

Whether "god" created the universe or not, it still all happened by chance. So you are saying that god set the universe in motion and waited 13 billion years to come back and create us? He took a big gamble assuming that our little star would actually be born and that planets would form and that some other planet would smash into our earth to form the moon. Without the moon we wouldn't be here today. And of course, the conditions would have to be perfect for life to thrive. The odds of all this happening were very slim. So why create this enormous universe and wait all that time if he really only wanted to create us? Why not just create the earth and all life on earth in a little bubble in 7 days -- as described in genesis. That would make much more sense to me.

For the record, I am not a creationist. I was trying to point out how ridiculous it would be for god to create the entire universe, just to get us as the end result. Some creationist believe god created the universe but we are special and the only planet he blessed with life.

You can edit your posts to avoid such misunderstandings.

missy wrote:Ok before you jump all over someone, please read all my previous posts. I accidentaly copied someone else's post instead of quoting it. So shoot me. These are my posts:

Whether "god" created the universe or not, it still all happened by chance. So you are saying that god set the universe in motion and waited 13 billion years to come back and create us? He took a big gamble assuming that our little star would actually be born and that planets would form and that some other planet would smash into our earth to form the moon. Without the moon we wouldn't be here today. And of course, the conditions would have to be perfect for life to thrive. The odds of all this happening were very slim. So why create this enormous universe and wait all that time if he really only wanted to create us? Why not just create the earth and all life on earth in a little bubble in 7 days -- as described in genesis. That would make much more sense to me.

For the record, I am not a creationist. I was trying to point out how ridiculous it would be for god to create the entire universe, just to get us as the end result. Some creationist believe god created the universe but we are special and the only planet he blessed with life.

But you still appear to be taking a creationist stance. Unless I'm reading this wrong. Whatever; welcome to the forum.

Could you explain this 'chance' that you seem to take exception to?

Wow you guys are tough. I am not taking exception to anything. The "chance" refers of our sun being born, the earth being formed, our moon holding us in place. Those are pretty incredible odds if you ask me.

Is everyone drinking tonight? lol.