The Origin of Life

Five questions worth asking

Incl. intelligent design, belief in divine creation

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Re: The Origin of Life

#2081  Postby Shrunk » Mar 28, 2014 11:01 am

questioner121 wrote:I'm glad to hear that. We should always do our best to understand certain things ourselves.

I'm not stalling, just getting an idea of the consensus. Looks like we're all going to get a "schooling".


That's the royal "we", I presume.

Let's not lose sight of why we're banging on about this in the first place: questioner is going by the literal definition of "evolution" as "change in alleles over time". So, in his mind, if the chromosome fusion is not considered an allele, then this has nothing to do with evolution and cannot serve as evidence of evolution.

Yes, that really is how stupid his argument is. And that's why he's wasting so much time trying to prove he's right.
Last edited by Shrunk on Mar 28, 2014 11:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2082  Postby hackenslash » Mar 28, 2014 11:14 am

:this:

It shouldn't be forgotten that q brought several definitions here himself, only to reject it when I showed that the fusion fit them all nicely.

No honesty to be had, hence the utter contempt for his guff.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2083  Postby questioner121 » Mar 28, 2014 11:18 am

Shrunk wrote:
questioner121 wrote:I'm glad to hear that. We should always do our best to understand certain things ourselves.

I'm not stalling, just getting an idea of the consensus. Looks like we're all going to get a "schooling".


That's the royal "we", presume.

Let's not lose sight of why we're banging on about this in the first place: questioner is going by the literal definition of "evolution" as "change in alleles over time". So, in his mind, if the chromosome fusion is not considered an allele, then this has nothing to do with evolution and cannot serve as evidence of evolution.

Yes, that really is how stupid his argument is. And that's why he's wasting so much time trying to prove he's right.


Excellent. :thumbup:

"cannot serve as evidence of evolution" in terms of chimps being related to humans.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2084  Postby Calilasseia » Mar 28, 2014 11:24 am

hackenslash wrote:I don't even think we should be humble in our admissions of faulty thinking; we should crow with delight about them, because every time it happens, you learn something and you grow. It doesn't get any better than that.

You learn the most when you get it wrong, not least because the wrong idea serves as a point of reference for the correct one.


I'm reminded here of the Dawkins anecdote, about a scientist who had devoted much time and effort, striving to establish a hypothesis, only to find himself at a scientific conference, where a relative newcomer presented a recently published paper, demonstrating conclusively that the hypothesis in question was, in fact, false.

The scientist in question approached the newcomer on the stage after the presentation, and announced:

"I have spent fifteen years working on this, only to find that I was wrong. Thank you for educating me, and congratulations on work well done".

I can only recall seeing an analogous response once from a poster here, namely Willhud9, when he was provided with evidence demonstrating that creationist assertions were plain, flat, wrong. The response of every other creationist I have encountered has been in diametric opposition to the above: continued insistence that manifestly destroyed canards purportedly constitute The TruthTM; thinly veiled ad hominems directed at those providing, free of charge, an education here that many others would gladly pay for; and utterly duplicitous attempts at misrepresentation, such as misrepresenting a consensus arrived at through diligent examination of evidence as purportedly constituting "groupthink".

As a consequence, I'm tempted to offer up the notion of the Willhud Award, to be awarded to the next creationist exhibiting his willingness to listen to evidence.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2085  Postby Calilasseia » Mar 28, 2014 11:27 am

questioner121 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
questioner121 wrote:I'm glad to hear that. We should always do our best to understand certain things ourselves.

I'm not stalling, just getting an idea of the consensus. Looks like we're all going to get a "schooling".


That's the royal "we", presume.

Let's not lose sight of why we're banging on about this in the first place: questioner is going by the literal definition of "evolution" as "change in alleles over time". So, in his mind, if the chromosome fusion is not considered an allele, then this has nothing to do with evolution and cannot serve as evidence of evolution.

Yes, that really is how stupid his argument is. And that's why he's wasting so much time trying to prove he's right.


Excellent. :thumbup:

"cannot serve as evidence of evolution" in terms of chimps being related to humans.


And right on cue, just as I was posting my above post, we have another example of duplicity. The blatant quote mine above is so transparent, it's the product of a truly special brand of either stupidity or chutzpah.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2086  Postby ADParker » Mar 28, 2014 11:44 am

questioner121 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
questioner121 wrote:I'm glad to hear that. We should always do our best to understand certain things ourselves.

I'm not stalling, just getting an idea of the consensus. Looks like we're all going to get a "schooling".


That's the royal "we", presume.

Let's not lose sight of why we're banging on about this in the first place: questioner is going by the literal definition of "evolution" as "change in alleles over time". So, in his mind, if the chromosome fusion is not considered an allele, then this has nothing to do with evolution and cannot serve as evidence of evolution.

Yes, that really is how stupid his argument is. And that's why he's wasting so much time trying to prove he's right.


Excellent. :thumbup:

"cannot serve as evidence of evolution" in terms of chimps being related to humans.

:doh:
So that's what all this blather has been about then?! If the difference between our fused chromosome and the otherwise near identical two in chimpanzees (etc.) is not labeled as an allele, then it suddenly stops being evidence of their common ancestry?!
:rofl:
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2087  Postby Shrunk » Mar 28, 2014 11:53 am

questioner121 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
questioner121 wrote:I'm glad to hear that. We should always do our best to understand certain things ourselves.

I'm not stalling, just getting an idea of the consensus. Looks like we're all going to get a "schooling".


That's the royal "we", presume.

Let's not lose sight of why we're banging on about this in the first place: questioner is going by the literal definition of "evolution" as "change in alleles over time". So, in his mind, if the chromosome fusion is not considered an allele, then this has nothing to do with evolution and cannot serve as evidence of evolution.

Yes, that really is how stupid his argument is. And that's why he's wasting so much time trying to prove he's right.


Excellent. :thumbup:

"cannot serve as evidence of evolution" in terms of chimps being related to humans.


So you agree your argument is stupid. We're making progress. :thumbup:
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2088  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 28, 2014 12:04 pm

Continuing from my last post...

The Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania, in THE ORIGIN OF LIFE - FIVE QUESTIONS WORTH ASKING, wrote:

3. WHERE DID THE INSTRUCTIONS COME FROM?

...

THE ULTIMATE INFORMATION STORAGE SYSTEM

The key to the DNA, the sign says, lies in those rungs, the bars connecting the two sides of the ladder. Imagine the ladder split apart. Each side has partial rungs sticking out. They come in only four types. Scientists dub them A, T, G, and C. Scientists were amazed to discover that the order of those letters conveys information in a sort of code.

You may know that Morse code was invented in the 19th century so that people could communicate by telegraph. That code had only two “letters”—a dot and a dash. Yet, it could be used to spell out countless words or sentences. Well, DNA has a four-letter code. The order in which those letters—A, T, G, and C—appear forms “words” called codons. Codons are arranged in “stories” called genes. Each gene contains, on average, 27,000 letters. These genes and the long stretches between them are compiled into chapters of a sort—the individual chromosomes. It takes 23 chromosomes to form the complete “book”—the genome, or total of genetic information about an organism.*

The genome would be a huge book. How much information would it hold? All told, the human genome is made up of about three billion base pairs, or rungs, on the DNA ladder.19 Imagine a set of encyclopedias in which each volume is over a thousand pages long. The genome would fill 428 of such volumes. Adding the second copy that is found in each cell would make that 856 volumes. If you were to type out the genome by yourself, it would be a full-time job—with no vacations—lasting some 80 years!

Of course, what you would end up with after all that typing would be useless to your body. How would you fit hundreds of bulky volumes into each of your 100 trillion microscopic cells? To compress so much information so greatly is far beyond us.

A professor of molecular biology and computer science noted: “One gram of DNA, which when dry would occupy a volume of approximately one cubic centimeter, can store as much information as approximately one trillion CDs [compact discs].”20 What does that mean? Remember, the DNA contains the genes, the instructions for building a unique human body. Each cell has a complete set of instructions. DNA is so dense with information that a single teaspoonful of it could carry the instructions for building about 350 times the number of humans alive today! The DNA required for the seven billion people living on earth now would barely make a film on the surface of that teaspoon.21

*Each cell contains two complete copies of the genome, 46 chromosomes in all.


BIBLIOGRAPHY

...

3. Where Did the Instructions Come From?

...

19. Bioinformatics Methods in Clinical Research, edited by Rune Matthiesen, 2010, p. 49.

20. Scientific American, “Computing With DNA,” by Leonard M. Adleman, August 1998, p. 61.

21. Nano Letters, “Enumeration of DNA Molecules Bound to a Nanomechanical Oscillator,” by B. Ilic, Y. Yang, K. Aubin, R. Reichenbach, S. Krylov, and H. G. Craighead, Vol. 5, No. 5, 2005, pp. 925, 929.

..ejider
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2089  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 28, 2014 12:20 pm

Good thing we had those scientists around dubbing those rings of the ladder.

What the fuck is the point of bringing up Morse code? These JW fools didn't bother to point out that everything they own on their computers is represented by combinations of ones and zeros, as if that mattered either, I suppose.

Their propensity to argue from incredulity is getting worse than tiring. "To compress information so greatly is far beyond us." Oh, I see. Since they can't figure out the hard things, therefore, jhwh.

Anyway, here in this section they've thrown around a bunch of whiz bang factoids, taking the cheap approach of trying to dazzle their hapless readers into believing their arguments from incredulity. We'll see shit tons more of this before we're through with this booklet, I am certain.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2090  Postby Agrippina » Mar 28, 2014 1:35 pm

Who was it that said "we learn from our mistakes?"
A mind without instruction can no more bear fruit than can a field, however fertile, without cultivation. - Marcus Tullius Cicero (106 BCE - 43 BCE)
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2091  Postby ElDiablo » Mar 28, 2014 2:36 pm

Metatron, for a second I thought you were trying to hijack this thread with JW stuff. :rofl:
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2092  Postby Shrunk » Mar 28, 2014 2:47 pm

Agrippina wrote:Who was it that said "we learn from our mistakes?"


I can't remember his name, but I believe he later realized he was mistaken. :)
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2093  Postby questioner121 » Mar 28, 2014 3:09 pm

ADParker wrote:
questioner121 wrote:
Shrunk wrote:
questioner121 wrote:I'm glad to hear that. We should always do our best to understand certain things ourselves.

I'm not stalling, just getting an idea of the consensus. Looks like we're all going to get a "schooling".


That's the royal "we", presume.

Let's not lose sight of why we're banging on about this in the first place: questioner is going by the literal definition of "evolution" as "change in alleles over time". So, in his mind, if the chromosome fusion is not considered an allele, then this has nothing to do with evolution and cannot serve as evidence of evolution.

Yes, that really is how stupid his argument is. And that's why he's wasting so much time trying to prove he's right.


Excellent. :thumbup:

"cannot serve as evidence of evolution" in terms of chimps being related to humans.

:doh:
So that's what all this blather has been about then?! If the difference between our fused chromosome and the otherwise near identical two in chimpanzees (etc.) is not labeled as an allele, then it suddenly stops being evidence of their common ancestry?!
:rofl:
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Calling it stupid isn't going to make it false now is it. That's part of it.

Why don't you describe in terms of evolution why the fused chromosome IS evidence of common ancestry.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2094  Postby Shrunk » Mar 28, 2014 3:23 pm

questioner121 wrote:Why don't you describe in terms of evolution why the fused chromosome IS evidence of common ancestry.


It's already been explained to you. I thought you said you were doing your homework while the thread was locked?

Anyway, here's the article I pointed out to you before:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006 ... -genetics/

Oh, look! As a special bonus, that article has a sentence just perfect for you to quote mine:

The fusion is not evidence of common ancestry.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2095  Postby Darkchilde » Mar 28, 2014 3:23 pm

questioner121 wrote:
Calling it stupid isn't going to make it false now is it. That's part of it.

Why don't you describe in terms of evolution why the fused chromosome IS evidence of common ancestry.


You do not understand, do you? Even after 100+ pages when people have explained it to you again and again. Why bother? Go back and read the thread from the beginning.

I think that you are simply trolling now.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2096  Postby Onyx8 » Mar 28, 2014 3:24 pm

Is this a swing or a roundabout? Either way someone doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2097  Postby The_Metatron » Mar 28, 2014 3:44 pm

ElDiablo wrote:Metatron, for a second I thought you were trying to hijack this thread with JW stuff. :rofl:

You do realize that is what this is about? A JW publication.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2098  Postby Shrunk » Mar 28, 2014 3:49 pm

The_Metatron wrote:
ElDiablo wrote:Metatron, for a second I thought you were trying to hijack this thread with JW stuff. :rofl:

You do realize that is what this is about? A JW publication.


Yes, it's easily forgotten.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2099  Postby Sendraks » Mar 28, 2014 4:03 pm

Shrunk wrote:Oh, look! As a special bonus, that article has a sentence just perfect for you to quote mine:

The fusion is not evidence of common ancestry.


That's almost too delicious to resist. Will they take the bait I wonder?

I'm going to see if I can sweeten the trap.
The fact that I don't have a dishwasher is not evidence of common ancestry.
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Re: The Origin of Life

#2100  Postby questioner121 » Mar 28, 2014 4:16 pm

Shrunk wrote:
questioner121 wrote:Why don't you describe in terms of evolution why the fused chromosome IS evidence of common ancestry.


It's already been explained to you. I thought you said you were doing your homework while the thread was locked?

Anyway, here's the article I pointed out to you before:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006 ... -genetics/

Oh, look! As a special bonus, that article has a sentence just perfect for you to quote mine:

The fusion is not evidence of common ancestry.


Excellent. Thanks. :thumbup:

Author put's the point across well that it's not the fusion that's the evidence of common ancestry but the genomic content.
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